I think that this is clearly the case. But I do also think if we could add let’s say 2 more game wreckers (and El Jefe develops into the lockdown guy that I still expect him to) that we do have several competent defenders that can fill out what would be a solid NFL defense.
Julian does have the potential to be a game wrecker but we’d be wise to add several more potential game wreckers over the next couple drafts. If a couple pan out we may have something on that side of the ball.
I still think improved coaching can get us into the low 20s in team and scoring defense though.
I am curious to see how the defense plays. I think you’ll see strides just based on the new scheme. Players will know their roles and not think so much. That alone will improve play. This isn’t to say they’ll be world beaters, but they were truly awful last year. Maybe they’ll be middle of the road or bottom third this year with some growth by guys like Okudah and J Okwara…and some health from guys like Hand and Flowers for once (Groundhog’s Day)
You just described Matt Patricia’s exact situation. He was pursued by the Giants, more heavily than Glenn was pursued by the Jets might I add (that felt very token-ish to me). Patricia was also considered “one of the rising coaching stars in the league,” certainly more so than Glenn as well. So according to you Matt Patricia should have automatically been better than the last coaching staff, and would turn around the defense. See how those things don’t automatically align?
You’re just creating a moving target. I’ve already stated I like the coaching staff hires, and I believe in the long term direction of this staff. Being better than the worst coach in the history of the Lions doesn’t mean much though. Hell you and I could be better than Patricia. Being better than him doesn’t automatically make the defense “solid” without talent though. I believe the talent level to be subpar. Whether Lions fans agree with the overall direction of the coaching staff, and whether there is enough talent to make a true difference, are separate points.
Ahhhh, there it is. The kind of posters on this board that drove away so many good contributors through the years. And the reason I left for a long time as well. I believe my opinion that the defense lacks enough talent to really make a stark turnaround isn’t exactly controversial. If you disagree that’s fine. But comparing “this defense doesn’t have enough talent” to “the sky is green?” What do I even say to that.
You shouldn’t be. It’s just potential at this point. He was really good for ND in the ‘18 seaso though. He was seen as a top 15 pick by some at that time. Immensely talented kid. Much more so than his brother.
2018 was a long time ago. And he was a mid round draft pick. Let’s just see if he can actually make the team and get on the field before we label him as a “potential game wrecker.” Let’s just start with “rotational pass rusher” and we can hope for more from there.
So you are being disingenuousness rather than ignorance. Got it. Glad you cleared that up for me.
I was responding to your last point about coaching. It’s clear my recent response was specifically about that and not the talent on that side of the ball. So who is it again that is the moving target?
Your Matt Patricia example is also a poor one. Patricia accepted the head coaching job. For your analogy to hold water Patricia would’ve had to have been contacted for a HC interview while still a position coach. Your retort was built on an entirely false premise.
Also we’re talking about the defensive staff. Not the head coach and not even simply the defensive coordinator. Which defensive coaches that worked under MP were you impressed by?
As for the whole pushing people away let’s try and not be so damn dramatic. You came in heavy with your response by calling me out for hypocrisy. Perhaps you should think about what in your post might have generated a passionate response.
I believed your post to be an especially faulty one so I set the record straight. Seems like that’s well within the boundaries of acceptable forum behavior. If this website is not for debating opinions on the Lions then what is it for?
I think its fair to say you have reason to your hope and optimism, but there is no evidence yet. And the reasoning may be flawed because of the lack of evidence. The defense has not improved significantly in talent this off-season (may actually be worse) IMO
Gains:
Brockers
Corn Elder
Quinton Dunbar
Alex Anzalone
Dean Marlowe
Losses:
Danny Shelton
Justin Coleman
Desmond Trufant
Daryl Roberts
Jarrad Davis
Christian Jones
Of the guys we acquired, we are really only paying 1 of them any decent money (Brockers). Obviously if we add a bunch of good pieces in the draft it may look different, and there is still late FA additions, but right now this defense looks worse on paper. I do think the new staff will be better than the previous, but it won’t happen instantly. I expect to be one of the worst 5 defenses this year again, and I think that is justifiable based on the roster we have plus a new staff trying to put their scheme in place.
Trust me, I want to believe! Look at my username lol. But as you pointed out, we thought the exact same things when Matty Patty came to town. New schemes usually struggle. New schemes with a bad defensive roster definitely struggle. New schemes with a bad defensive roster and an average at best offensive roster definitely really struggle.
But this simply isn’t true. To anyone that follows the league and team closely it is a painfully evident that this defensive staff in it’s entirety is far more qualified and dynamic than any defensive staff that we’ve had in forever.
I laid it out in a post above. We have Sacksonville’s DC as our DL coach. We have one of the most highly sought after secondary coaches. Our LBer coach was in the running to be elevated to DC in Chicago.
There is in fact plenty of evidence that MCDC put together a great defensive staff.
You didn’t violate board rules but you are being a little aggressive. All he did was disagreed with you and he had a valid point.
Your optimistic and you gave the reason for being optimistic.
He’s saying pump the breaks. These guys haven’t proven anything yet. He’s not wrong about that.
Both points are valid points.
But I think we all are optimistic about this new coaching staff and as a Lion fan who’s been fooled before I can’t blame someone for not drinking the koolaid just yet.
I do feel we have less talent on defense right now than we did last season. So I personally have plenty of concerns. Which is a large part why I hope we add a quality defensive player or two.
The problem is, there is a huge difference in doing it somewhere else and doing it here. Patricia had done it in NE, but never did it here. That is what we are talking about. We ALL agree we like this staff better. But that doesnt mean the defense WILL be better instantly with a possibly worse roster on defense.
He insinuated that I was being a hypocrite. What else was the pot calling the kettle black comment supposed to mean. I feel like my response was pretty measured given that he in my mind instigated an escalation of sorts. His style might be more passive aggressive but I my mind he was the one to ratchet things up a notch.
Anyways, enough of that. Back to the Lions. The irony is a i don’t think we’re that far off. Most believe we have some solid NFL defensive players and a really promising staff but lack stars on that side of the ball. Odd that things became so divisive when there is probably more consensus on this topic than most. Such is the internet I guess.
When discussing the D it isn’t about addition and subtraction as much as it is about who is healthy. What happens if Flowers is healthy and Hand, Okwara, Bryant? Cornell? Certainly whatever happens in the draft and and final cuts/FA is important but I really wonder how good this D might have been with players who simply weren’t available. Adding Brocker is an immediate upgrade vs the run where we just plain sucked. I have no illusions about us taking a leap ahead here but I also acknowledge that there were some significant pieces of the puzzle that weren’t in play last season as well.
Did Patricia do it in N.E. or did he sharpen BB’s pencils? I also don’t get the comparison of MP to AG. These are the apt comparisons IMO:
MP - MCDC
Paul Pasquiloni and Corey Undlin- Aaron Glenn
Bo Davis - Todd Wash
Al Golden and Tyrone McKenzie - Mark DeLeone
Brian Stewart - Aubrey Pleasant
It’s night and day IMO. MP really struggled to find quality defensive assistants. I think we all have some theories as to why but they are just theories. His defensive staff sure was lackluster though.
I do have far greater questions about the offensive side of the ball. Staley was clearly a coup but there is good bit of uncertainty around the East IMO.
You are going in circles arguing the same thing. Its obvious now that Patricia DIDN’T do it in New England. It was BB or Flores or the players or the culture or something else that lead to their defense being good. And we don’t know the answer on Aaron Glenn AT ALL. It could be that he had Marshon Lattimore and Marcus Williams and Von Bell that made his secondary look good. Maybe it was the DC. Maybe it was Payton. Maybe it was the team culture. Maybe it was readily available beignets. We don’t know anything for sure about most people on this staff, or how they will work together, or what the true talent level is of the roster.
I’m going around in circles? How do you figure? I’m just trying to dispel what I believe to be poor arguments built on false pretenses. I’ve laid out a clear concise argument as to why there is significant evidence that MCDC hired an excellent defensive staff. I haven’t deviated from my stance once and I still believe it to be validated both by the resumes of the individual coaches and by their reputations within the league.
Our defensive line coach coaches potentially a top 25 defense of all time a mere four years ago. DeLeone and Pleasant are both widely regarded as rising stars. Glenn is perceived to be on a head coach trajectory. These are widely held beliefs.
I am of course perfectly aware that Aaron Glenn has not been a DC before. Is that you’re an entire counterpoint? Aaron Glenn does indeed add some uncertainty. And sure you