Stafford played with broken bones in his back

Fair argument, but is the flip side true? Do bad QBs win with good teams?

All the time if you ask me. Every so often they win a ring.

If that’s the case, then why are we paying a premium for the QB? Shouldn’t we then allocate more resources toward the “team” than QB? I mean, Stafford is taking up 15%+ of the cap and he’s not exactly top 5 performing…

I do distinguish between team results and QB play, by the way.

My interest is more in team building than QB merit, necessarily.

Mark Sanchez, a bad QB who did win with a good team. I could name others.

" If that’s the case, then why are we paying a premium for the QB? Shouldn’t we then allocate more resources toward the “team” than QB? "

As a matter of fact, I argued your position with REM a few years back when Stafford was signing tht big extension. At the time, Stafford’s play then was better than it was last year (JMO) and the feeling was that he could and would win playoff games for the Lions given a better team around him. But he didn’t get a better team around him, guys got hurt or didn’t perform up to expectations, and Stafford got his ass handed to him every Sunday.

Once again, a QB can’t be any better than who he’s got to work with, plus a defense that can stop somebody. It’s gotta be both, or it doesn’t pan out. Maybe it will this year, I’m sure we all hope so.

But then there’s this point too: the next QB they draft, no matter which round he goes in, may not be the guy that can win playoff games either. The percentages do not favor it, and so the Lions can build a better team outside of the QB and still not go anywhere. The problem also is that you can’t tell when the next Kalil Mack is going to come along, it’s almost as hard to build that kickass defense as it is to get a kickass QB, cuz guys get injured or they sign elsewhere for the big bucks. So, either way it’s a gamble.

Ten years into the league and Stafford still hasn’t had a playoff quality team AND good coaching to go with it. I know, sounds excuses but it is also the reality that even with Calvin here the Lions have not been that good. Would it have made a difference if the Lions had an extra $10 mil in salary cap and a cheaper QB? Hard to say. The grass ain’t always greener.

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RIght? If it were that easy…

I think that all QBs are not made alike.

My issues with Stafford are his touch and his placement. He throws fastballs and they’re not the best placed. I have concerns he’s not reading the whole field, but only those who have film and know what he’s supposed to do can really know that. I have seen plays, however, that I’ve taken apart from the all 22 that showed points or even first downs on the field that should have been taken. Yes, you can say that about all QBs, but if it’s one of those “all QB” situations, then why not get a cheaper one? Cuts both ways.

I agree it’s in no way simple. Football is such a dynamic game.

I do have an issue with the “team” argument, though, since we did build the game around him pretty much. Pass happy offenses should be able to convert 3rd and short with passes and not be blaming the “poor run game” when the run game was tailored to accommodate a pass happy team: OL not run blockers, but pass blockers, ignored or gooned up for years with Mayhew., small backs that are suited for runs outside where they’re not getting crushed in the middle, shotgun formation a LOT which limits the run plays you can even call and then when you do, they’re not all that effective (unless, of course, you have Shawn Bryson taknig them. That dude was GOLD).

Caldwell said “we have an arm and we’re going to use it”. Fair or not, that put the burden on Stafford that he can’t carry.

$10M? How much does Mahomes make again? I tend to use percentage of the cap. Mahomes is 2%. (like Wilson was when it helped the Seahawks). an extra 13% of the cap to use on “team” might be better spent than on a QB that we’ve seen for 10 years couldn’t carry the burden we put on him.

Blaming the coaches seems a little bit like a catch all. I don’t like to do it unless there’s good evidence. Suppose one of their limitations was ownership telling them they had to feature the QB who they love to death?

Excuses work for me for a few years, but a decade? And after watching the choke job in 2013, I’m less prone to want to give the benefit of the doubt.

And a “fat lazy bum”…LOL…the vast amount of sports ignorance from the self appointed experts is astonishing

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You mean like the opposing defense bragging that they knew the play coming up?
This offense has been readable to a novice since Lombardi! Much of that was on player groups, in particular the RB, and TE.
Now, how often have we seen Riddick in the backfield on 3rd and short, run up the gut and be successful? They kept doing it, and he rarely gained the first down. That’s a coach outsmarting himself!
I’m sorry, but, Riddick is NOT a credible 3rd down back running the ball.
Now, put in a fullback and motion Riddick to the slot, you confuse the defense and add options such as screens to Riddick, handoff to the FB, or a reverse to Riddick…but, no.
To my feeble brain, Zenner is the obvious 3rd down back. With Riddick the occasional 2nd down change up…and I’d still have FB Everytime he’s on the field.

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Was it, or was it on the QB? We staying in shotgun a lot. That helps the QB see the field and hurts the run game because it limited plays. When we did line up under center, the other team knew it was very likely a run play.

The Jets bragged about knowing the play, but I looked at one or two of the INTs very closely. While we were throwing into double or triple coverage, there were open receivers down the progression tree. Not sure a Brees or a Rodgers or Brady doesn’t get the drift and start using it against the other team.

QB, in my mind, shoulders a lot of it.

If you blame the coaches, then all you’re doing is calling the QB a trained monkey. They have to be able to think out there.

I’m with you on Zenner. Blows my mind this guy is always producing, but then it’s always to the back burner… Give that dude more carries. He might heat up.

The previous run game, in my opinion, was more atrophied than intrinsically bad. We never attempted many runs, so the OL can’t get into sync for run blocking and running in pass pro is crappy no matter who does it (except Barry). This is coaches error, but their error is choosing to showcase the QB. It’s the QB who isn’t executing.

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Well, in his first 3 years, he played fewer games than Charlie Batch did in his first 3. And people dogged Batch for being injury prone (and ignored how many hits, legal or illegal, he kept getting back up from).

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consider how he got hurt. A human the size of a Volkswagen comes through unblocked and jumped on him. To me, that matters. Stafford played behind one of the worst OLs ever assembled. We literally may as well have not even lined someone up at RT, for much of his career.

People can construe things in any way they want, and the truth is, we all see what we look for. To me, #9 passes the sniff test. He’s a football player, not just a QB. I’ve always felt that way. I’ve hated most of our QBs, so this isn’t homer-ism, it’s my belief, be it right or wrong…it is my truth.

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Wouldn’t that be a coaching blunder? So, it’s just a question of how many more questionable calls the coaches made.

Or it’s something we don’t know.

I wonder, all things being equal, how do you guys think Tom Brady, Aaron Rogers, Drew Brees, and the Lions would have fared, over the years, if they had been quarterbacking the Lions instead of Stafford?.. Do we go to multiple Super Bowls?

I think he’s a football player too. But I don’t see him as an elite QB. Cannon arm, to be sure, but there’s more to the QB position.

If you’re going to win with MS, you can’t pay him 15% of the cap. I’m not sure you succeed paying ANY QB that kind of money, but especially one that doesn’t make the top tier. I mean, if you’re a top tier QB, you don’t finish 25th in passer rating no matter who your supporting cast is and that’s where he was last year.

I do like his game. I think he’s tough. I liked Kitna the same way (although Kitna’s arm wasn’t nearly as good as Stafford’s and Kitna was not elite either). When Kitna went out throwing fists at a dude he thought hit him (wrong guy, though). I like that. Stafford has guts, too. He’s hella exciting when he’s on, but you have to be consistent to be great and complain all you want about the supporting cast, the guy makes too many unforced errors and goes cold for long stretches like the Wolverines in March…

It scares me to think of how those guys would have looked with Calvin Johnson. 2011 would have been an additional 75-100 points that season. And 2014, with that defense, Super Bowl. If we have one of them, we take Donald instead of Ebron and the offense scores more than 321 points the entire season. 2014 offense scored fewer points than 2007 offense with Jon Kitna at QB. And Stafford was terrible that year (worst QBR of career not counting his rookie year). Barely broke 60% completion. 12 INTs…

That’s a lot more changes than just QB.

If my aunt had a dick and nuts, she’d be my uncle.

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Honestly I don’t think Tom Brady would have made it here. Had the Lions taken him with a late round pick he probably never even gets a shot. The stars perfectly aligned for him in New England.

Zero % chance, IMO

So you’re saying I can’t explore personnel decisions based on who we had at QB?

Weapons for Matt was exactly Ebron. If we had one of the top 3, we don’t take Ebron. Also, Schwartz doesn’t get fired for Stafford’s giant choke job in 2013. And Schwartz doesn’t take Ebron over Donald.

I think with Donald and even with Stafford we have a shot in 2014. But with a better QB (which those guys are) we have a much better shot in 2014.

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