I really like Holmes but can fully admit he made some questionable moves, just as all GMs do. The fact is Brockers was always a short term fix. Even if Levi turns into a stud and McNeil as well, we still need DLine help. There is nobody behind Levi and Brockers right now and we have no options for Brockers replacement in 2023.
I would still put safety, LBer and WR above that, but it’s just as pressing as a stand up edge rusher.
We only had 3 wins. We have a LOT of room for upgrades.
Literally nobody has commented on how perfect Holmes is.
Why do you feel the need to discredit Holmes at every opportunity?
There is no such thing as a perfect GM. In your world the GM must hit 100% or he’s a bum?
I don’t believe you believe that.
So why do you work so hard at discrediting Holmes and “loling” people who look favourably at this management team?
You’d do better if you eliminated this impulse.
…Brockers is old, guys were hurt, dudes are young, etc.
I get to do whatever I want. 
(just having fun with you, brother…I knew what you mean).
I catch myself being hard on Levi as well. It doesn’t mean he sucks. I have to remind myself too…they didn’t even expect the guy to play last year.
If we are trying to attach meaning, it’s that he was injured…THAT, my brother, is the meaning.
Secondly, 100% of GMs miss on some guys. If he missed on Levi, it doesn’t mean he sucks. He’s the type of dude that will move on from his mistakes very quickly and own that what wasn’t a fit…wasnt a fit. 100% chance you’ll see some fo that.
It also means → Brockers is old, Okras are always injured, and we still have a general lack of talent on the DL
It also means → we had such a ridiculous lack of talent when he came in that drafting two DL and bringing in Brockers and Harris wasn’t enough! Insanity, right? (but also true)
You know better than that. you’re just talking down to me in saying that.
I could throw a dart back at you here, but I have no interest.
I really think we get a WR this year too. I agree that they will most likely prioritize that, especially while we figure out what we have in Levi and Alim.
Massive assumption there. Nobody said that. Prioritize trenches does not mean ignore the rest of the team. Weird take, IMO.
My biggest thought is that maybe I have a longer sighted view of how they are building. We need so many guys that you could justify picking from damn near any position.
If our goal was 100% to build for winning as many games as we can THIS YEAR…your strategy is FAR better than mine…I agree with that.
I am seeing it from a longer view. Truthfully, the penetrating DT that I want (second only to a Josh Allen-type QB), is not available this year…so…I don’t think we should take him this year, if the right guy isn’t available (Long sighted).
If it’s just a “filling holes” approach, you will win more short term, but if you know it’s going to take a couple of years to round out a roster, you will get the roster filled out with either approach, but one will have the higher talent level. As far as actually evaluating talent, a lot of you guys are better than me at that. I can identify leaders very wellthoguh.
One thin g is for damn sure. We’re about to find out what they think.
Disagree on the reasoning.
completely agree there, in terms of what they will bring in.
Yes to all of this.
What if he’s right ? We’ve seen a lot of players leave Detroit and look as good or better. It is hard to get an exact read on pleasant’s comments because he cites areas to improve but then also suggests Tracy can improve
So if he can
And he does
Then don’t you also sort of have to pay him if you’re expecting him to do that ?
… and then now with lions new found stability and coaching zen , Tracy shows he is top 75
Would that be ideal ?
Ie is it ideal to pay Tracy and have him
Live up to the contract ?
Or
Not pay him
And see him perform up to the contract on his next team ?
It’ll be interesting to see what they can do -
There’s probably ability to know through relationships if marcus would even consider signing in Detroit , or what’s most important to him in his free agency that could impact Detroit’s plan.
Yeah they want him to see his worth.
The Lions are playing a dangerous game of chicken and there’s a good chance he’s gone. So that begs the question. What will we do. Be aggressive after a better safety or turn to the draft?
I think they’ll go after Marcus Williams, try to resign Walker, and if they can’t get Walker back then they’ll draft one to play with Williams.
No
You pay him for what he’s done not what you hope he will do. You expect every player to work towards being a probowler but that doesn’t mean you pay them like a probowler. Wait until they make it and then pay them. In my opinion he’s a 6-7 mil a year guy. If I’m paying 10 plus then I’m chasing Bates or Williams in free agency.
Walker and Williams would put two free safeties on your team. Who’s playing the downfield role?
That’s not exactly my full point or question
Imo I’m not sure in business it always wise to use maximum leverage when trying to show employees they’re valued
How will you feel it helps lions if they let Tracy walk and he plays like a $10-12 mil guy ?
And marcus Williams says no.
Not as bad as I’d feel if we paid him 12mil and he played like a 4 mil guy.
He’s played like a 4mil guy. I’d resign him at 6mil. At 7mil I’m weighing my options hard. At 8mil plus I’m moving on.
But it sounds like he’s looking for a payday above 10mil a year.
As @LineBusy pointed out. Their letting him hit free agency for a reason.
They’ve said they would like to have him back. This tells me his asking price is above what their willing to pay. So either his asking price comes down or he’s gone.
Regardless he’s testing free agency and gauging his value.
My best guess today is that they continue the youth movement. I wouldn’t bet a plug nickel one way or the other.
Sounds to me like a time for an incentive-based contract. Lay it out just like what air said.
"based on league averages for production and cost, you have ben playing like a _____ Safety. We love what you bring to the team in terms of brotherhood, team presence, etc, and we WANT you to make what you should make. This is the production level of a 6 mil guy, this is the production of an 8 mil guy, etc. You get to pick how much you make with on field performance!.
GO MAKE US ALL PROUD!"
Like shuffling deck chairs
And Tracy ends up like Stafford and Diggs etc
Hopefully whatever they do works
Eventually good players get paid
And there’s players like Diggs Laken and Matthew who have gone on to get respect as good players once they left.
I don’t agree that contracts are only for what you’ve done without consideration for what they want you to do. Human nature is people want to be paid their worth even when signing a contract.
If Lions think Tracy can be a top safety
They should pay him like one rather than just try and use leverage to make him pay a lesser deal.
If they let him go they stlll need a better safety
So you want to pay players based off their potential over their actual performance?
I think that’s a good way to finish with 3 wins and be stuck with contracts like Flowers.
No
But you are assuming his performance which had yet to come
And pleasant suggested Walker can do it
Even as you suggest he can’t
My point is if Walker is right , snd even pleasant comments suggests it’s not out of realm of possibility that Walker can do it
So if I’m rooting / predicting on what I want to happen is
I’ll go with this :
Pay Walker who lives up to the contract numbers
But even more than that
I want lions to win
So build a winner.
letting talent go
That lions fans agreed was over rated and not worth the contract
Also sounds like a decent recipe for 3-13-1 since we’ve seen that happen too.
Even if they sign marcus Williams as perfectly connected and fit for Lions
That’s exactly how they got Flowers.
I’m asking you to consider the perspective I presented which is
What if Tracy gets paid like a top safety by the lions and then plays like it ? Will you think it’s a bad deal because he hadn’t played like that yet ? Patricia era likely stunted a few players
It’s your opinion he isn’t a top guy
His opinion is he is
Pleasant suggests he has work to do but didn’t rule it out.
Imo
On this stuff I don’t really have a horse in the race of knowing for sure what they should do.
I want the lions to build a winner and properly take care of their good players. I want the lions to properly evaluate their talent and build the team. I think there’s added value of paying the guys on your team who do things “the right way” because you want to provide the illusion it’s family even though the business is brutal. When winning comes it’s harder to keep your good talent because it’s over valued elsewhere due to also looking good on a good team. But before you’re winning
Swapping out talent for equal talent is risky If Jerry Jacobs is a player , you want him to view lions as more than a stop along the way ( Suh )
These are also considerations for me on Tracy Walker deal or value to the lions.
Walker. “Vast area for improvement…but he can do this.” Walker’s take? “I don’t need anyone to tell me how good I am.” lol…acts like he walks on water.
Wait - Sorry I’m struggling to follow your point.
For the record I never said he couldn’t continue to develop into a top shelf S. I said he hasn’t played like one. He hasn’t been a versatile chess piece like Pleasant said he wants out of his safeties. Could he possibly get there? Sure…. Is he there now?… no… Pleasant agrees he has stated Walker has a lot to work on.
Let’s back track here.
In your first post your suggesting we pay him what he wants based on the expectation that he can improve.
He wants to be a top paid safety. So your implying we pay him like one correct?
In this post your once again suggesting we pay him like he wants to be paid.
So to clarify here. Help me understand.
Are you suggesting we pay him like a top shelf S because he may develop into one?
Or
Are you suggesting we pay him for the safety he is now?
I’m saying we pay him for the player he is now. If he wants to test FA and someone outbids your offer then cut your losses and move on. I’m not in the market of overpaying in hopes his value may rise.
If Walker thinks he can get paid 10 plus mil a year then I say go for it. I just hope the Lions aren’t the ones to do it.
I really don’t see that as a big concern. Both are talented enough to play both roles and that gives a lot of flexibility to a defense. Williams is definitely the better center fielder though, and that may give Walker a chance to free lance a little more. He laid some massive hits this year and giving him less responsibility covering the deep middle may lead to even more big hits and big plays.
I really think there a better then 50/50 shot that Williams and Walker are on this team in 2022