I’m not arguing… as I’m not even sure I disagree, but what has Payne done to get demonized?
He’s missed 1 game in 5 years.
He keeps in pretty incredible shape, I’m not sure there is a 320 pound man with less body fat in the league
It wasn’t just a 1 year wonder…. He had 4.5 sacks and 15 QB hits in 21’ and then 11.5 and 20 hits in 22’…. Roughly the same 2 year total as Jeffrey Simmons…
He’s known to be a great run defender unless you base it on PFF rating, but he’s often asked to hold a gap and eat doubles and somehow that counts against him in their formula?
He’s never had less than 54 tackles in a year at DT/NT…
The fact that he’s spend his career on a shitty team, and watched his college teammate J Allen get 72M… can you blame him for wanting to get paid? Watt, Cox, Donald and of course Suh all asked for their bag she. It was time too?
Again- I’m not sure he’s worth that amount, nor do I know his character, but this almost seems like when guys were questioning Parsons?
That is actually an important consideration on Payne though. He’s been able to play beside another dominant DT in Jonathan Allen his entire career. Offenses can’t double team both guys. So they really help each other. If Payne joins another team that doesn’t have another dominant DT I would expect his production to really drop off. IMO Allen is a better player than Payne.
And together they are deadly. Allen had 47 qb hits the past 2 years and Payne had 35. That’s unreal DT production.
I want that competitive fire that made guys like Larry bird and Michael Jordan great. I want the work ethic of guys like Jerry rice and Walter Payton. Those are the hidden traits that make good players great.
Natural ability
Room to grow
Positional value
Height/weight/speed
Demonstrated ability at the position he’ll play in the league
His own drive/determination/motivation
If I were setting a board right now and could paste in our recent picks, I would have Sewell, Hutch and Okudah over anyone in this draft. They epitomize what I’m looking for.
Exactly!! Stud DT’s are like unicorns. And those 2 together are special. They let Payne walk, and now Allen is being doubled every single play. Think of it this way, Chase basically didn’t play this year and the Commanders had a top 5 defense.
The thing that will make Carter a top 5 pick will definitely be the interview process. He has to account for his effort and his college coach publicly trying to motivate him. Does he love the game or is he just naturally good at it?
I agree with you that the interviews will be very important, however some of these dudes are pretty good at saying what you want to hear. They practice for months preparing for those interviews with their agents. And you only get like 15 mins with each player at the combine.
Yea good call… how many player visits are they allowed again!?
Also, I’d want to talk to Carter’s coaches, and the weight lifting/conditioning coach. Maybe talk to some of his former teammates, professors even. If your going to invest 30-40 million in a top 10 pick, go deep.
Don’t pull a Matt Millen and draft an overweight WR because he had a couple nice catches in college. lol
When you look at the reasons FA signings bust, the contract year spike in play is one of the largest red flags. It’s one of those things were in hindsight, you could sort of see it coming. I’m just trying to get ahead of it so we don’t waste our money.
Now does that mean he won’t work out? Of course not. He may be worth every penny of his second contract. But to me his contact year spike makes him high risk, and I’d just as soon stay away. Find the guy before he breaks out, like the Eagles did with Redick and CGJ.
Someone with Keion White’s ceiling. That also has goals/aspirations to be successful in the NFL, earn a 2nd contract. The guys whose dream was just to become an NFL player, are the ones that bust out
How do you measure that, I have no idea. Hence why it’s such a tricky business. Human beings evaluating other human beings
Solid answers and great posts in this thread. Thank you.
Not a lot if talk about elite traits. I need a top player (to Farmer’s point…IF they’re players who have that talent) to do something special. The work ethic and will to win can be found in non-top picks too.
Sewell…big guys just don’t move like that.
Hutch…the combination of speed, power and intelligence is rare.
Jameson Williams…elite speed and route running when he us healthy.
Going back a bit:
Stafford…arm strength but also photographic memory and desire to win. Matt was a true gem.
Calvin…size, speed and power.
Suh…power and nastiness.
Who has that in this draft?
Seems like the Alabama QB (Bryce Young) is a killer. Smart.
Will Anderson is elite to me. Power, bend and closing speed.
Jalen Carter is elite with his speed and power. PFF gas never graded a DT higher.
Does Witherspoon have elite traits? Gonzalez? Brian Branch?
The edge rushers in this draft don’t excite me past Anderson.
I have to say RB Bijan Robinson has my attention. 225 pounds, fast, great receiver and is an elite tackle breaker.
If Carter and Anderson are gone who has more elite traits than Bijan? Terrible positional value and a deep RB class but damn, this guy can do it all.
Just not sure Anderson is a 3 down player. Pass rusher for sure. Is that long, lean build going to hold in the run game vs NFL tackles? He’d be going against dudes like Sewell in the nfl. I think Sewell might kill him in the run game. He’s got about 90 pounds on him. Perhaps Anderson can gain 10-15 pounds or start playing off the ball on early downs. He aint setting the edge at 235-240 pounds in the nfl. I’d imagine they are trying to put some weight on him before the combine.
Yeah, the Jalen Carter freight train might be all the Cracker Jacks plus the prize, but confirmation bias is a real human thing, especially with casual fans and even Den members like…me. I mean, I haven’t given up on Jermar Jefferson as a viable replacement of Jamaal Williams (on the field only) because of early impressions, unlike the rest of you sensible types.
Pictures of Carter holding up the LSU QB(?) like King Kong did nothing to slow the hype train. Could effort, stamina or personality paint a fuller, less appealing picture for teams at the top of the draft? I don’t know. But Brad will. And don’t discount Dan’s Basset Hound Turd Detector as a factor in Carter’s allure for the Lions.
