As I read the thread, I guess I was not quite as confused as you… I got what he was saying… as in… sometimes the jack lines up on the weak side. I thought he was somewhat clear that the jack was not the Will, but the Jack will at times line up outside of the Will. I just hope opposing defenses are confused
It’s all good. I’m glad he was patient enough to hash out the miscommunication. My earlier responses in the thread were a bit too abbreviated. Picking it up from the beginning like you did helped. Still, I can see where I boiled it down a bit too much.
No not at all what I’m saying.
I can’t for the like of me understand why this is so hard for everyone else to understand.
So I guess you are then saying:
(a) the Jack is a linebacker, also called the Edge.
(b) the Jack lines up on the weakside (away from the tight end).
(c) Jack cannot be a weakside linebacker, because that term is reserved for Will
(d) To call Jack weakside linebacker means there could be two weakside linebackers, which would be confusing.
Is that a fair summary?
I’m not confused at all … Linebusy called “the Jack” the wrong terminology by calling him “the weak“ - Which is incorrect. 3rd also mis-labeled Kennard and I was trying to set the record straight here.
The Jack and the WIL are two different positions. I am not sure why my point is so hard for people to understand?
Here’s are some quotes. That got this all started.
He’s not playing the WIL he’s playing the Jack. The Jack lines up weak side on the LOS.
This is actually correct this is a sub package where the WIL was pulled for an extra DB who is lined up off ball.
Line busy then said this.
This is 100 % Correct
Correct again the Sam is called a strong linebacker. Because he lines up on the strong side
But he then says this. - which is why I corrected him.
This is wrong the Jack does not = Weak … He does line up weak side but you can’t refer to him as the weak side LBer because he’s not. That’s actually what we call the WIL. The WIL is the weak.
See why I stepped in?
He is right on this. The WIL is the weak and he is an inside LBer. He lines up off ball.
As you can clearly see. He referred to the Jack as the Weak (He’s not) and then he referred to the WIL and the Jack both as the weak. (Which is incorrect)
All I have done this entire thread is try to explain that the Jack and the WIL are different positions. They have different responsibilities. They line up differently. And most importantly the WIL is called the WEAK and that the Jack is not called the WIL or the WEAK.
I am not confused. Not even in the slightest. I am simply trying to explain that what Linebusy said isn’t completely accurate, it isn’t proper terminology and there’s a reason you can’t say it that way. I am also trying to state what is correct so that others aren’t confused by the inconsistency.
For some reason I am failing at this. Which I can’t for the life of me understand why? I’ve felt I made it pretty clear but apparently I haven’t.
@JerseyJungle thank you!
No not exactly 100% but you got it.
Thank you - For I minute there I thought I was speaking Greek or something.
I will summarize.
(a) Most coaches don’t refer to the Jack as a LBer because it’s confusing. Some don’t use the term Jack at all. Some call them an Edge. The reason for this is the Jack lines up on the LOS like a DE does. They have edge responsibilities. There are still a few coaches that call them a Jack LBer but most don’t anymore.
(b) not 100% correct the Jack is always lined up on the weak side of the formation. Sometimes there is no TE but the jack is always lined up weak side. Think 3- 4 WR sets with no TE. Jack is still lined up weak side.
(C) Bingo! Thank god someone gets this point. Yes
Thank you!
(d) Ding Ding we have a winner … this is exactly what I’ve been saying. The weak side LBer is the WIL LBer. He lines up off ball. He’s a true LBer while the Jack is an Edge player.
WIL = Weak - He lines up weak side off ball and is a true LBer. With traditional LBer responsibilities.
Jack = Edge - He lines up on the LOS on the edge and is basically a Hybrid DE/Edge guy who sometimes drops into coverage.
You CAN NOT call the Jack - The Weak, WIL or weak side LBer because he’s not.
I shouldn’t have boiled it down to “=weak”. I should have stated more clearly “aligned on the weak side of the field” each time I tried to reinforce that point. By abbreviating it as much as I did, you (and likely others) see those references specifically as WILL. Meanwhile, others are able to see what I was intending to say. That’s the confusion. I never intended to call the Jack “the Weak” and never would call him “the Weak”. However, my posts can be read as though I did.
The confusion isn’t over the LB position, it’s in how the text is read or the intent of the one communicating.
It’s funny, because at one point (and I think someone else had the same thought) one of your posts could be interpreted as though you were objecting to calling the Jack a Linebacker at all. Like, it wasn’t a rejection of my saying he was playing on the weak side, rather it was a rejection of my calling him a linebacker. Again, it’s just a communication thing. What’s thought then typed then read and finally understood doesn’t always line up.
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I 100% get what you were trying to say Linebusy.
After re-reading it to be honest. I had to re-read it several times. Your choice of words reads as though you were saying he’s a weak side LBer.
I also get that you understand what your saying here. Your knowledgeable on this stuff. But I hope you get why I stepped in. It read completely wrong.
I’m simply saying that we can not refer to it that way. Do you see why now? It confuses the masses and reads different than you intended. Then others thought that’s what you meant.
You just can’t call the Jack - the Weak. It’s that simple.
The rest of the thread was trying to squash everyone else take on the matter.
Agreed - clearly both of us struggled to get our points out clearly and concisely.
I’m not sure if we made things worse or better with this thread however … we likely confused the hell out of everyone.
OK then. I think we are finally all on the same page.
Now, shall we discuss 3-3-5 alignments, nickels, slot corners, strong safeties, box safeties, etc. (J/K).
Yes, several days ago. LOL
Worse would have been walking away frustrated or unsettled. If we can talk for days about mock drafts that will never materialize, we can certainly be patient with each other enough to figure out why our points are being missed or misunderstood.
In the end, it’s a good conversation, even if there’s an intermittent head slap mixed in. The pictures and commentary you added helped to cement the roles nicely. These conversations and questions have been going on for weeks, it’s not just this thread. Fleshing out what we’re calling players and why (and why not) is good for everyone’s football interests, I would think.
We’re going to discuss these players for days/weeks to come, the better we understand their roles and fits, the better we’ll understand the strengths and weaknesses of our own team.
So the 9,000 times Kennard lined up on the left side of the defense, came down on the LOS and proceeded to rush the passer, he was NOT a JACK. He was then a SAM. When the offense lined up 9,000 times with the TE lined up to the offenses right, making the offenses right side the Strong Side, and Kennard lined up on the LOS he was a SAM, but when the QB motioned the TE across the LOS to line up on the left side, making the right side now the Weak side, then when Kennard stayed put, then rushed the QB he morphed into a JACK LB, because a JACK only rushes from the Weak side. How could this be confusing to anyone…
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I suspect we will see some changes with our new DC too. I’m expecting more 3-4 concepts this year than in the past.
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Please don’t think left and right. Think strong side and weak side.
Here’s the thing you have to understand. In a multiple defense the Sam and the Jack are interchangeable players. But their roles are different.
I suspect that Bryant, Jones, Killebrew, Collins and Okwara will all take snaps at both the Jack and the Sam.
When in the Jack they will be lined up weak side and their primary role will be to pressure the passer.
When in the Sam they will be lined up strong side and their primary role will be to drop into coverage.
Sometime we will blitz from the Sam. There’s usually a Key the Sam looks for before blitzing.
Sometimes the Jack will drop into coverage too.
There are no absolutes in a Multiple defense. It’s meant to be confusing. But if you learn the above basic concepts and then start watching what we do it will soon all start making sense to you. You will start to see and understand why we do what we do.
Let me make this one last point too.
Let’s say Bryant is the Jack. He’s lined up weak side.
Let’s say Collins is the Sam and he’s lined up strong side.
The TE goes in motion. Changing which side is strong and which side is weak.
Two things usually happen. Sometimes both and sometimes just one or the other. Depending on the play call and Keys.
(A) If we’re in a sub package a nickle back will usually follow the TE.
(B) if we’re in a base defense the Sam will then take on the role of the Jack (Meaning Collins is now the Jack) and the Jack will take on the role of the SAM. (Meaning Bryant then switches to the Sam) They switch roles and responsibilities.
You have to keep in mind that the Jack isn’t a player it’s a role. The same for the SAM.
Over the last two years we haven’t had enough players good enough to play both the Sam an Jack role. That’s why Kennard took most of the Jack snaps. But with Bryant, Collins and Okwara we now have several players who can be multiple (both SAM and Jack)
I hope this makes sense to you … please ask if it doesn’t. I’ll try my best to clarify it.
Patricia had no one filling the Jack hole?
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This is highly clarifying. Thank you.
Air is this how you see it? Because this is much closer to how I view things. The set below is what I’ve been talking about seeing most of the time. Without seeing where the WR’s are lined up and no TE’s visible, it’s hard to tell which side is weak v strong, but here is Kennard on the left side of the defense, on the LOS with Jones as the off the ball WILL. I call Kennard the JACK as does the articles author:
It is kinda hard to tell because it’s cut down but it looks like he’s playing the SAM to me.
Assuming Jones is the WIL. Which is what it appears to be from this view.
That makes Kennard the SAM.
Also Davis is the Mike and the Mike shades the strong side. Which also suggests Kennard is the SAM.
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So the article is wrong then. He would also be dropping not rushing as the SAM in your view right?
If it’s a pass play then usually the Sam drops into coverage but we sometimes blitz from the Sam too. It all depends on the call and Kennard’s key.
I’d say 90 percent of the time the SAM drops into coverage on a pass read.
The Sam does have gap responsibilities on run reads. In that case he will fill his gap.