Weak side is a side of the defense, not a term used exclusively for the WILL.
If the JACK is outside the WILL, he is A weak side outside LB. and WILL is the weak side inside LB, MIKE is the strong side inside LB and SAM is the strong side outside LB.
If the JACK is outside the SAM, he is A strong side outside LB and SAM is strong side inside LB, MIKE is weak side inside LB and WILL is weak side outside LB.
Just like the CB on the weak side of the defense (usually the right) is the weak side CB and the CB on the strong side of the defense (usually the left) is the strong side CB. Free Safety is the weak side Safety and the Strong safety is the Strong side safety.
WILL is always on the weak side, either outside or inside, depending on where JACK is.
SAM is always strong side, either outside or inside, depending on where JACK is.
MIKE is always middle, either strong side or weak side, depending on where JACK is.
JACK is always an outside LB, either weak side outside LB or strong side outside LB, depending on where he lines up.
When you have 3 linebackers, it’s easy. WILL is the weak side LB, SAM is the strong side LB and MIKE is the MLB.
When you were on the field as the Jack in college, what was the formation and where did you typically align? What were the other members of the front 7 while you were the Jack?
If Patricia is successful here, one day we’ll adopt the same approach that the writers at NESN.com have and just call them “the three linebackers” because that’s the homogeneous assembly they aspire to build. Same with safety. They’ll simply be “the two safeties” for the same reasons… They can’t be pigeon-holed into a single spot.
Why is this so hard? … For the record … I played the position in DIV III football. I totally understand what it is. What it is called. Why it is called that and what the responsibilities are.
Weak side is a side of the defense … yes that is correct.
Weak side LBer is called the WILL. You can’t call the Jack the weak side LBer. That is a false statement. They are two totally different positions.
The Jack is NOT called the weak side LBer for this very reason. Because the weak side LBer is a total different positions and is called both the WILL and the weak side LBer.
The Jack is NOT outside the SAM. They play opposite sides of the field and in MP’s system they can be interchangeable. I figure we will see more of this in 2020 now that we have the pieces.
NO … this is also incorrect. The weak side LBer is also called the WILL. He playes on the weak side and is an inside LBer opposite sides of the MIKE.
I am sorry but this is completely incorrect on all levels. Let me explain each point you made here.
Where the WILL lines up has nothing to do with where the jack lines up. It has to do with what his assignment is on the play but he lines up inside the jack.
Where the SAM lines up has nothing to do with the Jack. Yes he lines up on the strong side and is often referred to as the strong side LBer. He’s the opposite side of the jack.
The Jack is never lined up on the Strong side. When Kennard lines up on the right he’s playing the Sam not the Jack.
Formation doesn’t matter. The Jack lines up on the weak side up on the LOS.
[quote=“LineBusy, post:42, topic:5370, full:true”]
where did you typically align? What were the other members of the front 7 while you were the Jack? [/quote]
Diaclaimer. There are no absolutes in a hybrid multiple defense but the general rule of thumb is the following *
3 down DL, 3 LBers and an Edge guy called the Jack or Edge depending on your coach. People really shouldn’t think of a Jack as a true LBer.
Jack (Edge) Weak side guy who sets the edge. Basically same as a DE but sometimes drops in coverage. You can not call him a weak side LBer because he’s not.
WILL Is the weak side LBer. He called both a WILL and a Weak side LBer. Depending on your coach. (That is why you can’t call the Jack a weak side LBer. They are two different positions)
Mike - He playes the middle of the field. He lines up in different locations depending on the play call but he’s on the opposite side of the WILL.
Sam - Plays on the strong side. He usually plays up in the box. Sometimes on the LOS in run scenarios. Has a gap responsibility but he also drops into coverage frequently.
In college I played the Jack, Joker, WIL, Spy, and SS roles depending on the play call.
Speaking of pigeon hole. I think I know what MP is trying to do. Due to player restrictions at LBer he’s had to pigeon hole players into roles they are not qualified for. I expect to see more 3-4 looks where our players will play multiple roles more frequently than in the past.
Fantastic!
I agree that we wouldn’t call him the “weak side linebacker” because that is how the WILL is referenced. If you asked 100 football players what the weak side linebacker is called, 100 would say Will. I’ve never said that (or at least never tried to). I’ve only tried to say what you just said in quotes and your posts, that the Jack in a 3-4 scheme is aligned on the weak side, opposite the SAM.
Then with that established, you recognize also that Kennard is largely on the defensive left side which is normally associated with the Strong side.
I’ve seen where some Alabama writers refer to Jack simply as the 4th rusher. So the player isn’t a Jack on the depth chart, rather it’s the guy who’s actually coming as the 4th rusher that down, which could be any of the backers on the field. I don’t know how prevalent that definition is in the college or HS ranks. I know what is a long-established definition in the NFL, and it’s as you have said above. (Also as pictured and referenced by Jerod Mayo).
That said, I wouldn’t use the term as a catch-all for players like Kennard. Since he’s in a position that is typically Strong side and since there typically isn’t a ROLB opposite him, I just shy away from the term. He’s had the role of a 34 Outside Linebacker, or more specifically the LOLB. You could call him a 34 Sam, but that would lead to a bunch of “buts”, too.
I think there’s a reason only 1 reporter uses that term in all of Detroit and New England. If it has a definition of OLB opposite the SAM or on the weak side of the formation, then there are many downs here where no Jack is present. I know you don’t agree with that narrow of a definition, though. I believe that you use the term more as a description of the player type, as Schlitt does. To me, I’d rather go to Tweener or Hybrid or Edge or 34 OLB or DE/LB.
This. It was my assumption when we dumped Kennard and then signed Collins that there would be another shoe to drop and that Collins was not our replacement for Kennard. Although he certainly can play that position as he’s by far our most versatile (that word again) LB. When we drafted J.Okwara, I was like YUP, that’s the guy to rush the passer from the JACK (SSLB/Kennards old spot). We’ll see, but I agree Okwara is much more explosive and twichy of an athelete than was Kennard. We will sacrifice some strength against the edge setting run game, but we’ll make up for that in spades with pass rush and coverage ability as JO is better at that too IMO. We have plenty of big strong LB’s like Collins, Tavai, now Ragland if it’s an obvious run down. But for most sets and certainly Nickle, we go with the pass rusher and the best we’ve got right now is the rook.
You mistakenly called the Jack the weak side LBer. Which is incorrect and very confusing. At least that’s how it read to me. As you can see by this thread clarity is needed.
Keep in mind Kennard lined up in both the Jack and the Sam. (Not to mention the WIL in a 4-3) Not at the same time obviously… lol
I think the fact that the Kennard did this is a tell tale sign of why we drafted Bryant, and Okwara. I also think Collins was a key reason as well. I suspect that we will use them all in a way to hide if we’re a 4-3 or 3-4 hybrid pre snap. Last year that was near impossible to do.
Now let’s really confuse everyone and talk about how the terminology changes when we line up in a 4-3 … lol
Then this was not Kennard. He was not a “Weakside” guy. He was a “Strongside” guy more often than not. The formation Line highlights is a formation rarely used by us, not typical at all. What was typical is Kennard on the left side of the defense which more often than not, was the strong side of the offense. Kennard was a pass rush position on the LOS. The WILL was Christian Jones who played off the ball way more often than not. I know what I saw, but we are not in alignment on who the JACK was. If it’s Kennard, which I believe it was, then the word “Weakside” has nothing to do with Kennard. He hardly ever rushed from the Weak side, he almost always rushed, but he rushed from the Strong or Left side of the defense, right side of the offense.
Let me try to explain this. Hope this makes sense.
Kennard took snaps at both the Sam, and the Jack. When we were in a 3-4 Hybrid style defense.
He also took snaps at the WIL and SAM when we were in a 4-3 hybrid.
In a 3-4 Hybrid
Kennard took almost all of the Jack snaps. When he did he was lined up weak side. The Jack is always lined up on the Line of scrimmage on the weak side.
Kennard also took snaps from the SAM. He sometimes blitzed from the SAM but he mostly dropped into coverage. From what I saw he was lined up off ball mostly when in the SAM. When in the SAM he was lined up strong side.
Jones took snaps from the SAM too. Especially when we played run first teams like CHI.
When in a 4-3 base Okwara and Flowers we’re both in and we rushed 4 down linemen. Kennard would then move off ball to the SAM. We ran a lot of sub packages from this formation. When we ran a SUB Kennard usually came out in favor of a DB or he moved over to the WIL.
I think teams keyed on Kennard last year. They knew his limitations and exploited them. That’s mainly why we moved on and got Collins. Collins brings far more to the table than Kennard did. Collins will be a versatile chess piece too.
This is what I saw on most plays. But in MP’s multiple defense there are no absolutes. Sometimes we did some funky stuff.
Here’s what I think you were seeing a lot of last year 3rd. In this scenario we’re running a sub package. Pre-snap there’s 3 DL and two upright LBers who were both lined up on the LOS. There is no Jack in this scenario. Even though it’s meant to look that way. We’re showing a blitz look. Truth is we’re in a sub package that’s really a heavy pass defense.
Kennard is on the strong side of the formation. He’s up on the LOS pre snap but he’s actually playing the SAM. So he drops in coverage. I took this snap shot post snap so you can see his jersey number and the fact that he’s dropping into coverage.
My above post is an example of Kennard in the SAM. Often when he was in the SAM we were in a sub package. In the above example Killebrew is opposite him playing the WIL. Both drop off the LOS after the snap.
Here’s an example of Kennard in the Jack. He’s lined up weak side. Also notice he puts his hand in the dirt. He’s showing that he’s blitzing.
Here’s one last example of Kennard in the Jack. He’s lined up weak side (like always).
The reason I’m showing this is that it’s a weird funky sub package that is not the norm. Which is the reason I put in the disclaimer that there are no absolutes in MP’s multiple defense. The WIL is no where to be seen. He’s clearly not lined up weak side like he should be. JRM is playing the MIKE and he’s up in the box and drops off into coverage. A. Bryant is playing the SAM and he drops in coverage too.
Pre snap Dennard has his hand in dirt. Which he usually does when he’s in the Jack.
I’ll warn you, though, the more you watch like this, the more you’ll come to appreciate what we’re trying to do.
You’re showing exactly why I avoid the Jack label… Sometimes based on the offense’s alignment it is (sometimes it isn’t). Sometimes by play design it is (sometimes it isn’t).
When you watch them like this, it really emphasizes (myself, i’m better able to identify) the characteristics that they’re looking for both with their On-the-line backers and their off-the-line backers. You see the positions they’re put in and say “of course”.
Also, if you keep digging into the games, I think you’ll see that Romeo rarely plays opposite end to Flowers. You’ll see Flowers from the Right-side 9 all the way to the left side 3. Okwara does as well. Just not a lot of snaps where one is a LDE and the other a RDE, though I think a lot of fans have the impression he is. That’s why I never include Romeo in my conversations for the LOLB spot. I “assumed” he would be after we picked him up. Just didn’t see a lot of it in 2019.
I’ve had a subscription a few years now. I’m a geek for the intricacies of the game. That’s why I’m a season ticket holder. On TV you can’t see a play develop like you do live. My wife thinks I’m crazy because I rewatch games all the time.
In 2018 he did. We ran a lot of 4 DL sets. More 4-3 hybrid stuff.
In 2019 he did not because we ran more 3 DL sets. More 3-4 hybrid stuff.
The question is … was this due to injuries or was it the route MP wants to take the defense in?
Based on how we approached FA and the draft I think it’s the latter. Not to mention the background of our new DC.
The funny thing is we heard last off-season how Killebrew was a roster bubble guy. But he sure did get a fair amount of snaps last year for a bubble guy. However … I did notice that Bryant took a lot of those snaps once he was back. So I wonder if coaches are higher on Killebrew than the media and fans think?
I agree that we’ll continue their hybrid mixing and matching. Another question that I have regarding Okwara being used as a chess piece is; would they have used him as much if Snacks was more willing to play 3-tech? The injuries either forced more combos or prevented more. We’ll have to see on that as well.
I definitely associated Killebrew with being on the bubble last year. I wrote him off due to the flip-flopping between S and LB and back again. That signaled a failed attempt to make the team to me. I want to say that this year’s guarantee was another surprise. I’m not zeroed in on how the team sees Killebrew, that’s for sure. LOL
So let me see if I understand… Someone was arguing ad nauseum, that a Jack never lines up on the weak side, but then says that he did, or does (I’m sure there’s an explanation for this, perhaps preposterous). I just hope professional football players are as confused as the professional posters here.
My statement was that Linebusy referred to the Jack as the weak side LBer. Which he is not. There is both a Jack and a WIL. The WIL is called the weak side LBer. Not the Jack.
The issue wasn’t that Linebusy didn’t understand but that he used the wrong terminology. This made things confusing. I tried every way I could to explain this. I tried my best to make this point clear. Obviously it still isn’t clear to some. People are confusing the Jack and the WIL terminology and not understanding what’s being said here. I’m not sure what more I can say. But I will try one more time.
The Jack is NOT the WEAK he just lines up on the weak side the formation. However he is up on the line of scrimmage.
The WIL IS the WEAK, also called the weak side LBer. He lines up off ball and inside.
The Jack and WIL are different roles, and different positions.
Hope this clarifies it. - Please tell me where the confusion is coming from and I’ll try harder to clarify.
