Contracts with Satan never work out in the long run?
Rodgers knew the Packers were collapsing. He saw firsthand how Thompson hemorraged that team of talent. So Rodgers mission for this season was clear. 1) Squeeze the Packers for every available dollar. Team be damned. 2) Get McCarthy fired and get a QB friendly coach in.
Mission accomplished, and Rodgers will ride this wave as long as he can. He knows GB will not be competitive barring some draft miracles. The days of Greg Jennings being the 4th WR on the Packers are long gone.
I love how when you bring up facts, people spawn it as hate. I dont have feelings for Stafford. Its not about love or hate. Thats the effect of todays moronic social media/group think mentality. Ive shared this before, and Ill share it again especially for Motown.
I was in an argumentative writing class in college, and we had to write a paper on a subject we felt strongly about. Then you had to do two things. First you presented your argument, and your reasons supporting your argument. Then you had to write a counter argument, and the reasons supporting the counter argument. Someone in class asked “What happens if when you are writing, you find out that your counter argument is better than your supporting argument?” The professor said “That happens. When it does, you need to ask yourself why you are supporting something that there are more reasons against it. Is it a belief? Is it blind support? Its something you need to dig deep and ask yourself, why?”
Id challenge anyone to do the same on a divisive topic. People keep treating divisive topics as toxic. They are NOT toxic. Toxic is when you say “We cant discuss this anymore.” Thats when people stop learning, and when people stop thinking intelligently. There are topics we will argue until the end of the universe, and guess what. THATS OK!!
Oh, and Motown. As for my “hate”, lets just say I had a long discussion with a football friend and we were trying to support Stafford, and point the blame at the Lions. However, the reasons kept point back to the QB. And as I already refuted, I do NOT think the Lions would get better simply replacing the QB. The Lions will get better, when the QB PLAYS better. That could be said for any team in the NFL. My friend said “Stafford isnt the problem, you can win with Stafford. You need to get him a really good TE. You need to get him good WR’s. You need more help on offensive line, and you just found a great RB”
When he said that, the first thought that popped into my mind was… Didn’t we say the same thing about Joey Harrington? He could be a really good QB, we just needed to formulate and entire offense to help him. Well, we tried for years, and failed. Stafford isnt getting paid to be a rookie QB needing help. He is getting paid top dollar to LEAD the Lions. If he is the type of QB who needs help, Im ok with it, but the Lions better be getting him to cut his pay. Stafford is NOT earning his paycheck, by any metric, and a player who isnt earning his paycheck is hurting your team, not helping. You bring up facts of what he did 3 years ago. Isnt that damning enough?
Joey couldn’t hit his ass with a scoop shovel.
Can you really compare Stafford and Harrington? I mean Stafford has thrown for over 5000 yards and 40 tds in a season while playing in 100 plus games in a row. Stafford may not have any playoff wins but at least we know he can actually be a compitent QB. And yes I would say Stafford isn’t earning his pay check, but other than snacks, slay, and Galloday who is? I agree with a lot of your thoughts, but there’s a fundamental flaw in this team offensively. After watching huge improvements in the defense, I’m hoping a full off season and a new OC can make a difference. I will also say that while the running game isn’t where it needs to be, there have been some big improvements. Stafford still has the kind of arm that can scare a defense…but we continue to dink and dunk our way to a 5-11 record. I mean, open up the playbook a little JBC???
I’d say, to this line, that if you look at who we played in 2015 you see the real answer why we did “better”. Only 1 playoff team in the last 8 games. Lots of playoff teams in the first 8. I think Lombardi might have been a scapegoat to buy more time combined with Stafford not being happy with Lombardi because Lombardi handcuffed him by playing him under center more. I still wonder how it might have looked had we kept Lombardi for the rest of the year. One would note that 2015, Stafford was over 60% completion for every game.
Lombardi was trying to make Stafford a better QB (per the mandate Caldwell said coming in) and more of a Brees clone than what he was.
I wonder what happens if Lombardi, not Stafford, wins that power struggle.
I didn’t. I called him a bust before the draft. I was very disappointed we drafted him. Tedford disciple. The Oregon teams had 2 1000yd backs and they were a run first team. Harrington got a lot of credit for being a game manager. And his nickname on the team was “princess”. Guys like that do NOT lead NFL teams. No way. No how.
I would agree that the teams he was on needed help. And since Raiola, the team ignored the interior OL for a decade. (taking dudes in the 6th round don’t count, IMO). Look at the draft history. They ignored the line for skill positions (1st round WRs). Mayhew (who was there during Millen’s tenure the whole stinking time) went the same route, but went for TEs instead of WRs. (in fairness, we had CJ in the fold).
I think it does, in fact, boil down to money. 15% of the cap is too much to spend on any QB. Even if they’re the best in the game, one injury and you’ve just sunk the ship. Better to build like the Eagles so your backup can come in and win. And it’s not like the Eagles didn’t have major injuries besides QB…
Stafford also holds the record for most pass attempts in a season (all time, not just current QBs). He also holds 7th*. You throw the ball that much and you have Calvin Johnson (one of the biggest targets you can get), you’re going to have regular season yards and TDs…
Stafford, IMO, padded the heck out of his stats while really not achieving much in the way of significant wins (wins against playoff teams, in or out of the playoffs, or even against good defenses). As opposed to Mark Sanchez, who had 4 road playoff wins in his first two years. Yeah, Stafford might be the “better” QB, but I’d rather have a lesser QB and post season wins.
I can’t see the justification for paying him as much as we do. It’s an error. We can win with any competent QB, but not if you’re blowing that much money.
At one point, we had like 30% of the cap tied up in him, CJ and Suh.
Suh was probably the best value of the 3 at the time. 850+ high powered snaps at DT is what fueled the wins in 2014. Can’t say it was the offense. They stank that year.
I think it’s time (maybe in 2020) to go a different direction.
I would probably change my mind if we get to the NFC championship game or win the division next year, but I’m starting to hold my breath when Stafford drops back. Kind of like I did with Mitchell… (who had 4300 yds with 583 attempts in 1995, extrapolate to 663 and he’s looking pretty close to 5000yds, if not over. Could do the same for Kitna, too, who had back to back 4000yd seasons with a pretty bad OL and nowhere near the WR talent that Stafford’s had. Can you imagine the crying if we only had Furrey, McDonald and Roy Williams at WR?)
Sorry, but I expect more from a #1 overall pick with 10 years of experience and who is hogging up 15% of the cap.
The lions won 10 games that year and made the playoffs so I don’t buy into the stat padding stuff. And honestly if you think we would be better off with “butt fumble” over Stafford I’m not sure what to say. Yes Stafford makes to much money but that’s the reality of the NFL. I guess I just remember the years of QB play before Stafford and really don’t want to go back to that.
Couple things. 1) Please dont think Im comparing Harrington’s talent to Stafford. Harrington was a system QB. A Tedford project, as said. People forget, being labeled a Tedford project is why Aaron Rodgers slid in the draft. Stafford is a far better QB than Joey could ever hope to be. Im just saying, when you make comments about having to surround a guy from top to bottom in order to succeed, thats not the way it works in the NFL. Every team is short somewhere. You have to be able to win with the guys you have. The Lions building a team around Stafford has produced 0 playoff wins. Letting Stafford do his thing, is not a winning formula. The Lions are right to try to change this.
- As for the “Thats the reality of the NFL”, no, its not. Thats a narrative bad teams fall for. Here is what I mean. Everyone wants to believe the NFL is a QB league. It is, but not as much as you think. Brees is a top notch QB. For a few years, he struggled mightily. NO let their team fall apart. It wasnt until they had a monster draft and made some smart FA investments that all of a sudden Brees is elite again. He never stopped being elite, he just couldnt do it alone. Aaron Rodgers is the best QB Ive ever seen. How the Packers have only won 1 super bowl with him is as shameful as Barry not playing in a SB. GB lost talent for years, and Rodgers play has slipped accordingly. He CAN carry a team, but only so much.
Now, as for the market, you are seeing a lot of teams saying screw it, Im not paying 15-20 million for a marginal QB with a shaky resume. Ill take my chances in the draft. Look at Chicago. I dont think Trubisky is a BAD QB. I just dont think he is great. However, Chicago made some good draft picks, some great FA signings, stacked the offense and Trubisky is effective and Chicago won a division with a 2nd year QB. Chicago followed the Rams model. Rams drafted Goff who looked terrible. Then they surround him with a deep WR core, had Gurley already, and they win a division with a 2nd year QB.
KC, where I live. They had Alex Smith, who was always good for 10-12 wins and a first round loss. They drafted a replacement in mind, groomed him, and traded Smith for assets. Then gave the keys to a rookie QB who is torching the league. All of these teams are paying CHEAP QB’s, which allows them flexibility to build their teams.
Detroit signing Stafford to the deal he did, screwed Detroit. Now its much harder to surround Stafford with weapons he needs, or at minimum they have to be bargain basement FA’s. My point is, the NFL is a TEAM game. We all know this. The days of overpaying for QB’s is dying. The market has become so expensive, its better business to get cheaper at QB, stack your team in other places and then make your middle of the road QB perform at a higher level. Theres maybe, maybe 5 guys who can truly carry a team. Stafford isnt one. Theres no shame in it, but you have to accept reality. Its economics. If you keep pouring money into something that isnt paying dividends, you are just wasting your time and money. You dont need to change course every hour, but you do need to be able to say “enough is enough” and have the smarts to walk away from a bad investment or put pressure on an investment to start paying off or else.
I’m not sure the Lions ever surrounded Stafford with a legitimate SB caliber team and coaching. Even in your post you admit Drew Brees (one the best QB’s to ever play) struggled mightly until the Saints had a monster draft and some good FA’s. I completely agree that Stafford is never going to carry a team through a season to the SB, but he can be the difference in winning a game or two. The reality I’m speaking of is that a legitimate QB who hits free agency is going to get PAID. Look at Cousins contract and I think he and Stafford are pretty similar talent wise. And yes if you can draft a stud QB and make a run with that rookie salary that’s the cheapest way to do it. But the Bears better win it in the next year or two because Tribusky, barring injury, is going to count a whole he’ll of a lot more against their cap than he does now. And I’m not putting the Bears down for it because I think they made an outstanding move in getting Mack. Again, I agree with a lot of what your saying Stormguy. If we can have an awesome defense and a serious running game we can go cheap at QB. I’m just not convinced we can do it. I will say that I’m very pleased with the coaching that has gotten us a lot better on defense and much better in the run game. Maybe a full off season and a new OC can get our offense going in the right direction.
And let me add that I think Stafford has been part of problem this year. And at his salary cap number that’s unacceptable and has to change.
I think thats all fair. And I also think, Minny screwed up by signing Cousins. I think he is good, not great, and WAY overpriced. He also provides zero cap flexibility, and lookie there Minny isnt as good this year as they were last. As more of those pass rushers come up to get paid, they will lose more and more talent too.
That’s the reality of the NFL a decade ago. Now, not so much.
Seems my definition of “better” includes winning in the playoffs or winning the division. I don’t see much difference between 7-9 and 9-7 with a blowout in the wild card game.
The reality if the NFL I was referring to is the price for good QB’s continues to go up. And yea I don’t see a huge difference in 9-7 and 7-9, but I’ll take a playoff game any year over not getting in. Even if we do get blown out or completely hosed by the officials in Dallas.
And New Orleans!
This is absolutely false but is one of those stats people throw out to make a point. I agree that Stafford shares blame but base things on facts not opinions. Pride of Detroit did a 10 part series on Stafford this past year. One week was spent on when he gets his yards and points. It was fairly evenly distributed among the 4 quarters. His highest quarter is actually the 2nd. This was a comprehensive breakdown and the author was actually surprised by it. I feel that Stafford was a big part of a few of the losses this year. I thought it was obvious that something Caldwell did with Stafford is missing. His mechanics are not as good this year. I am not smart enough to know what. So I have no problem with people being irritated at him. But confirm your facts please. If you don’t’ people will label you a hater whether deserved or not. JMO
We got hosed by Stafford’s inability to see CJ wide open pre-snap (and post snap), not just the refs. There was also a facemask on that play committed by Pettigrew. I’ve made screenshots before. The best case of that play should have been offsetting fouls, replay down.
Price for good QBs is not going up. 5 of top 10 teams (by wins) are on rookie contracts and costing the team about 2% of the cap. Top 5 QBs in salary are on teams NOT in the playoffs (if today), (except for Baltimore, who has just declared they’re moving on from Flacco).
It will take a while, but the more teams succeed with cheaper QBs, the more the price will come down.
Cousins got a monster contract. Good move?
One thing I noticed is that we’re under center about 10% more of the time than we were last year.
Same thing in 2014.
That could be it.
Stafford looked really good when he was in the gun (or pistol) and throwing to backs and TEs behind the LOS. Less than half of his yards for a long while were air yards. He was a yacmaster like Alex Smith.
There wasnt a flag thrown for Pettigrews facemask…there was against Dallas and it shouldn’t have been picked up. And come back when those 5 rookie QB’s on playoff teams get resigned…unless they get injured they all will make significantly more than Stafford. Its happens every year when the CAP goes up. Teams have more to spend so they do. And again I’m not saying Stafford isn’t part of the problem. He most certainly is this year. And I agree if you can find a QB on a rookie contract that can play you really have a chance to put together a better team. I’m just not sure it’s that easy to do.
Not a second too
If you’re going to complain about referee mistakes, then that also was one.
3-4 years of cheap is better than zero years of cheap.
I don’t think they’ll make significantly more than Stafford if you look at percentage of the cap. Stafford is at 15% of the cap. 15.5% next year. 15.8% the year after that. Stafford is the #2 cap hit this year. Garoppolo is #1, but his contract is screwy. He’ll be only 10% next year and they can cut him.
We also screwed up paying Ziggy $17M. (10% of the cap).
Not a winning formula to put all your eggs in one basket.
It looks to me that you have a better time having a rookie (or journeyman like Foles) play well enough to win if you surround him with a good supporting cast. Look at Mark Sanchez. Sanchez won 4 playoff games (on the road) in his first 2 years. I kept hearing from ardent Stafford supporters that Sanchez sucked and Stafford was way better (never mind Stafford’s china doll phase…)
The goal is not to have the best QB money can buy. The goal is bang for your buck. We’re not getting that from Stafford.
Another problem with Stafford is that he’s got job security due to a) contract and b) no competition.
We need to draft a guy this year to push to start. Then the Lions will be able to choose in 2020 whether they want to run with the young QB or stay with Stafford. It’s not necessarily the best QB wins. It’s Stafford at 15.8% v. young QB at 2%. If that additional 13% of the cap can get you 2 starters on the DL, I’m taking that.
Our offense pretty much sucks with Stafford, even at full strength.
I agree that Stafford needs some competition and has to pkay better or the Lions should go in a different direction. Still don’t buy into the Sanchez stuff. That gets team had a serious defense and running game. Curtis Martin I think was their back. But yea, I’m done defending Stafford. For what he’s making he should be in the Pro Bowl every year.