I think we were talented enough to be better in 2023 if not for the CB issue which clearly hamstrung us. I expect us to have a spicy defense next year given good health. I think we now have above average defensive talent by NFL standards.
For 2024 I mean.
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I guess that all comes down to how quickly Arnold can develop.
Hopefully fast, because at least two teams in the division have rookie QBs, so this years is as good as it is gonna get for a while
Are you talking AG and Lions
Or Bears ?
Complimentary football
If AG can do that for offense
Things will look good
The following are all day 1 or 2 picks…
1st rounders Hutch Arnold Campbell
2nd rounders Levi Paschal Branch
3rd rounders Alim Iffy Kerby Bromart
That’s 10 high draft picks on guys still on rookie deals. So yes the defensive spending hasn’t been high but the draft capital sure has been that we have invested into the defense.
Then add the additions of Anzalone, Reader, Robertson, Sutton (now gone), Moseley, CJGJ (now gone), Davenport and Davis.
Holmes has definitely been trying to get AG talent. Injuries to many of the above guys have hurt for sure though.
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I focused solely on the Bears…the Lions have clearly shone that you have to fight your way onto the field. So I would be very careful to say anyone will just show up and play for the Lions from the draft. But I have suggested that TA will get on the field sooner rather than later. But regardless he is a player that will compete from day 1 for some time.
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We got much better on the defensive line dj reader is a monster jump from Benito last year and the I ring on the cake is Davenport chances are he healthy half the season and playoffs 
Every team has high draft picks.
When you have to play guys like Romeo/Charles, Vildor/Jacobs. It’s not easy to field a competitive team.
I think the defensive woes are probably more on BH than AG. Injuries are bad luck, but it’s up to the GM to try to get players that aren’t going to get hurt and to have quality backups.
Still it would be nice to have a fairly healthy season on defense, for a change.
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True but every team hasn’t invested 10 high picks on defense. That’s my main point. Holmes has sure been trying. We have had more defensive day 1 or 2 picks than offensive players under Holmes on his 3 plus drafts.
Under Holmes day 1 and 2 draft picks…
Offensive players 4
Defensive players 10
I think my math is correct…might have missed someone.
I’m with you for sure on needing healthy guys. Injuries have decimated the secondary 3 years in a row.
Yea before drafting Arnold, we had 9 defensive draft picks and 5 offensive draft picks. At the same time, the cupboards were bearer on defense and many of those draft picks just haven’t worked out or took time to develop.
Alim, Hutch, Kerby and Branch all played well and had significant contributions fairly early. Hopefully Campbell will be better this year. Iffy took time to develop. Levi, Paschal, BroMart haven’t contributed much
High caliber starters for BH/MCDC first year:
Offensive guys - Decker, Ragnow, Jonah and Goff via trade. Hockenson/Swift
Defensive guys - Romeo (who ended up not really playing at all in AG’s defense) and Walker who really only played one year (2021). Okudah (maybe, if you are being generous). The rest was pretty much garbage.
If you aren’t going to spend UFA money on defense (which we didn’t spend much and what we did got hurt), you have no choice but to try to build the defense through the draft. We spent more money on offensive UFA’s (Chark 1yr, Reynolds 2.5yrs, J Williams 2yrs, Monty 1yr, Glasgow 1yr) vs defensive (Alex 3yrs - awesome signing, Brockers 2yrs - better leader than player, Cominsky 2yrs - up and down, Sutton - 1yr struggle, Moseley - 1yr hurt, CJGJ - 1yr hurt).
APY incorporates draft pick costs and while you may hit a home run with Hutch/Branch, you do hit duds with Levi, Iffy (up until mid way through year 3), Paschal, BroMart as well.
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Good post. The injuries have really stunted the development of many of the draft picks. Iffy, Paschal, Levi, and Houston have all missed a ton of games. Hard to develop players when they aren’t available. So can’t blame AG for that part.
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One thing also is that generally speaking the two traditional metrics for defensive performance are going to be negatively impacted by a great offense giving how common backdoor covers (or near covers) are in this league. Dominant pass rushing outfits often buck the trend but I don’t expect us to be there yet. That’s why I think that more modern analytics might be best. We were 13th in DVOA bc of the splash defensive plays brut ranked quite poorly in terms of defensive success rate. So top ten DVOA with a success rate relatively in line with that ranking so what I’ll be looking for.
IMO, AG is brilliant. I couldn’t disagree more with those who think he’s not a good DC.
This team had no business being as good as they were on defense. There are certain players on this team who have over achieved. To the point that scrubs were making plays. AG puts all his players in the best possible position to succeed. And has always made the right adjustments. Some players on this team would never be as good as they are on another team. Do I think some of our good players like Anzalone, or McNeil would be great on another team? I kind of doubt it. Not to mention Benito Jones, Isiah Buggs, Derrick Barnes, Comish, Iffy, and others. And the development for some players have been amazing.
This team was the best, or among the best at stopping the run. IMO, thats the most important part of any defense, and it’s a big reason why this team has been so successful. Why? Reader wasn’t on this team. I don’t see Snacks Harrison.
This team has zero pass rush outside of Hutch. He’s had to make certain adjustments like throwing random guys in there, blitzing more, etc. They have no outside CB’s. Sutton, Jacobs have sucked. Vildor is a practice squad player. Kerby isn’t even that good. He makes more mistakes than plays. It’s AG’s fault that Sutton can’t guard anyone? It’s AG’s fault when Barnes whiffs on a sack?
This team plays an aggressive style of defense. Which I love, but AG has yet to play the scheme he wants because of a major lack of talent.
You have to also see that they focused on what they do well, to make up for what they do bad. Coverage is crap. So, they allowed it to be crap because there’s nothing they can do about it so they focus on optimizing what they do well.
They improved their secondary, and added Reader which will help. Pass rushing might still be a problem.
Let not forget how the players love AG, and they credit him for their development.
This team has one of the worst defensive rosters in the league. What AG was able to do was brilliant.
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That’s only because the offensive players progressed while the defensive players have been more of a mixed bag.
I think people forget how the Lions had no WR’s and Goff was so bad LA forced us to take him (per the media)
In 2021 the Lions offense with Matt Stafford ranked 22nd and the Defense ranked 23rd. This is the reality of what our OC and DC inherited…… which is why I stated the talent on both sides of the ball was near identical. Since then the Lions have spent more resources on defense in FA and the top of the draft. (1-4 rounds)
It’s easy to claim the Lions have more talent on Offense when those players are out performing the defense but the facts are we’ve spent more resources on defense than offense since AG got here.
I have stated that AGs defense does look worse than it really is because of how he puts his DB’s in situations. However it’s clearly not performing to the level of our offense.
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But are you an Athletic supporter?
This is a tricky discussion.
For me Offense is all about execution. So a good coaching staff and OC can vastly improve an offenses output. Because it is not solely based on individual talent.
But on defense a good OC can isolate bad players and capitalize on their weaknesses. So the defense has to be stacked with athletes and smart players. And they all need to be average or plus players for it to work for the most part. Yes I do think there is scheme and coaching involved and are super important and can and will make a difference. But if you have individual weaknesses on Defense they will get exposed.
Simple example is you have an All Pro Tackle and Guard. You can run behind those 2 80% of the time or when you need crucial yards. You can scheme to your strengths for sure. While on defense you are often forced to just react to the offense.
Until Reynolds arrived mid-2021 (really not until game 11 against the Bears), the position was a complete disaster outside of rookie WR ARSB.
Rashad Perriman cut before the season started
Tyrell Williams caught 2 passes for 14 yards in game 1, then waived-injured
ARSB a rookie.
Khalif Raymond–one very good game against the Rams
Tom Kennedy
KhaDarel Hodge
Geronimo Allison
Trinity Benson
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I think if you factor in how many games the drafted offensive players missed vs defensive players on average you will find they are fairly close. Without looking my guess is we’ve had as many injuries on offense to those players added under Holmes. Correct me if that observation is invalid.
Williams has missed more than he’s played. So has Hooker.
Brown, Gibbs, Sewell, Jackson, Ragnow, Laporta, Lief, Michell and more have all missed games due to injury. No ones making excuses for Ben because his group is performing regardless.
Our offense has slowed due to injuries but it never stalled.
We use the injuries as an excuse for AG if you ask me.
I do not think AG is as bad as some make him out to be but there’s no denying his defense has underperformed, been streaky and had some game plans that were gawd awful at times. I also think AG is doing some stuff that’s pretty smart, innovative and ingenious too. He deserves credit for that.
Personally I think AG wasn’t ready to be a DC and he’s been going through growing pains. He needed help and Dan recognized it and brought in Fox to help him. Since then AG and his defense has made some strides and are improving. Sure the CB losses have stunted the growth a little but it’s more an excuse.
The last two years fans have been saying he has had above average talent and there is no more excuses. This offseason it’s more of the same.
So when is it really no more excuses?
I think we will see more strides on defense. I’m also expecting more growing pains too.
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We have been pretty lucky with the offensive high draft picks other than Jamo… who tore his acl in college. Gibbs, LaPorta, Sewell and St. Brown have combined to play roughly 95 percent of the games in their careers so far. Only a game missed here or there. No serious injuries thank god…knock on wood.
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Who said that going into 2022? I don’t recall that at all. 2023 sure. But at the same time we still acknowledged that we were thin at CB of injuries hit. And they did.
But 2022 was not perceived to be a talented defense by anyone on this board from what I can recall?
Very few NFL teams are stacked across the board. Every defensive team has a weakness.
But …. My statement is that his unit has routinely underperformed their talent level. His until has been near the bottom in most statistical categories for most of the time AG has been our DC.
I do think they made strides this season but I still think they underperformed the talent.
The Lions have dumped a ton of talent and resources into our defense.
I think we’ve seen what this unit is capable of. At times the last two seasons they have played well.
AG’s unit does need to start playing more consistently and living up to that talent level.