1.81 second 20 yards–Henderson
1.83 second 20 yards–Okudah
1.83 second 20 yards–Lattimore
1.84 second 20 yards–Ward
I don’t think we need to worry about Okudah not having enough long speed to not get beat deep.
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Thanks for the clarification. I probably should have looked at his twitter account instead of butchering it.
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Well, Jeff didn’t clarify the meaning of the word in the clip, maybe because he’s not really the braggy type and didn’t want to point it out. So I guess that a positive really.
The thing about Okudah is, how long will he have to cover somebody? If the Lions’ pass rush is little or no better than 2019, then he ain’t going to look very good. OTOH, I think the addition of Duran Harmon at Safety is a plus, together with Walker Okuday and Trufant might get better help deep. Plus, Collins ought to help with covering the TEs and/or RBs. Somewhat anyway. But I can’t get past the need to pressure the QB, particularly the interior. They really need a resurgent Da’Shawn Hand this year. And an offense that stays on the field longer and scores more points.
I think he’s a better prospect than both those guys, and I think he’s got a very good chance of performing just as well. And Ward regressed in his second year despite his excellence as a rookie, I think Okudah is already better than that version.
But these comps are almost always apples to oranges, our scheme is different from the Saints and the Browns (who are in their 3rd scheme in 3 years), we have different things we ask of our CBs, statistics don’t tell the whole story. It’s very possible Okudah has a great rookie season without putting up too many stats, if QBs choose to throw away from him, for example. Or maybe he has 10 picks but gets burned a lot because they throw at him so often, etc… Context is necessary.
But yes, as a prospect I like him more than Lattimore and a lot more than Ward.
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RAS scores are meaningless scores unless the data is complete and even then how one applies the numbers to a position . With the numbers not being complete, the score is not valid . The RAS grade is a sum of 14 variables, when all 14 variables are not entered it is meaningless for comparison.
When Pro Day numbers impact combine data you have yet another variable .
In the comparison alone of Henderson, Ward & Lattimore …Lattimore did not bench , had he & not crushed it, the number drops . Okudah’s arm length alone greatly impacts the bench press over a player with shorter arms.
Ward being 22lbs lighter and nearly 3 inches shorter than Okudah should have a greater impact on a adjusted RAS for the position being played and should have weight… but it does not .
Okudah is every bit the athlete Ramsey , Ward , Lattimore & Henderson are. The testing shows that. .
The incomplete total RAS score does not effect the results of the testing that was done , you cant have a total RAS score for comparisons sake with out all testing being done . When incomplete you then have to go to each individual result of the 14 measurable’s that were done in order to compare.
Claiming a total incomplete RAS score as proof of anything has no merit …
Scoring a perfect RAS score of 10 as Lattimore did minus not benching & not doing agility testing is the equivalent to saying you had a perfect SAT score …While scoring an 800 on the Math portion of the SAT and not taking the reading and writing portion and then making the claim of a perfect SAT score on the SAT…The truth is Yes it was a perfect score… but incomplete.
The Pro Bowl and DROY are not accomplished by individuals alone …Team popularity , teammates , talent around you , system & stats and what others do at totally different positions on different teams in that particular rookie year all have weight . Okudah could best both of them and still not get the accolade depending on what another Rookie does in his year.
A CB in Okudah with no pass rush on a Lions team that plays a heavy cover one the amount we do, in man and pressman will not be in a position to shine to get the stats that matter for a CB getting a glorified medal/trophy (ProBowl/DROY)
Okudah not getting either will have no impact on whether or not he is as good, better or worse as an individual CB in his rookie year …
Please enlighten me… Where did I do this?
I only used the RAS scores to counter the claim of how athletic Okudah is. RAS score is the industry’s standard for measuring athleticism and physical traits.
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I’ve heard you claim multiple times in other threads that Okudah has elite level athletic ability.
I used a website that tracks 20 years of athletic measurements and combine scores to prove otherwise. But you won’t accept that site because it counters your narrative.
In this thread you made this statement.
So I use RAS scores to counter this false claim. Which are the industry standard. You also claim these are meaningless.
So let me ask you a simple question then. What are you basing these statements on and what measurable standard are you using to make this claim?
Truth is he doesn’t have elite athletic ability by any standard used to measure athletic abilities.
This doesn’t mean he will be a bad player. He has adequate athletic ability. I personally think he will be a solid pro. But can we please stop claiming he’s an elite athlete when he’s not.
The only thing keeping him from having the same or better scores is his start out of a 3 point stance in the 40 which is a function that has nothing to do with what he will do on the football field. I’m not sure why he isn’t very good at it maybe was never a track guy but to have a 1.6 10 yd and end up with 4.48 is very fast.
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The picture you are painting here is false …I did not say RAS scores are meaningless as you quoted me above … I said
. You respond to a false painted picture of your own doing . Your entire point about 20 years of Data becomes totally irrelevant if you had responded to the entire sentence and take , it looks very different when you actually quote the entire sentence and take.
Because he does . The numbers he posted are better than most he is compared to.
In order to counter the claim I make that Okudah is as athletic or is the athlete the others are that I have compared him to & you have compared him to …You would have to justify using the incomplete RAS score and show it has merit in order to do so …
Those RAS cards prove nothing other than Okudah did not run the forty as fast as them in the evening under different circumstances and that’s it …nothing more.
In comparison to Henderson …The same RAS card proves Okudah is a lot more explosive than Henderson and has better size in every way . He also outscored him on the Wonderlic …
As far as the coverage grade of Henderson that you claim is better than Okudah you have never backed up . You would need to elaborate on it for me to counter.
It really is. Weighting each measurement properly is a fluid, inexact science. In the end, the score becomes something near meaningless.
And I’m not saying that because I’m an Okudah fan. I’ve downloaded the dude’s software and tried referencing it in the past. The scores just aren’t landing in a meaningful way to me.
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Come on Air…you are using RAS to buttress your opinion that Henderson is better. Nothing wrong with that but clearly you are assigning a lot of weight on RAS scores. That is why you believe Okudah was taken too high. No you didn’t type that but that is clearly your context. You believe Okudah will fall short of some of the other CBs that came before Okudah as you feel like he isn’t quite the same class of athlete.
The counter is that while Oudah falls slightly short on some testing (while also winning other athletic standards) his clearly leads in other areas like route recognition and defensive concept understanding (knowing where his help is) as well as his technical game. To me player smarts trumps RAS scores as long as the RAS scores are still really good.
We are all looking for predictors. Like GPA and references coming out of college for a job. Things that will translate to a successful career. Nothing wrong with weighing RAS as that is easier to measure and athletic ability matters a great deal. It is the intangibles that are tougher to measure but Oudah seems to have that stuff in spades. Lots of it. High character. And I am cool with that.
100% correct …The fact that other players at the same position have a determined total RAS score based on the 14 variables (Measurements) and that a possible 8 of the 14 different variables can be effected and have weight on a total RAS score from possible improvements on Pro Day numbers renders the entire total RAS score useless.
Especially when using it as a measurement of proof to a relative athletic score …
It’s nonsense and cant be done, never mind how each measurable is weighted into the formula for a specific position .
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Doesn’t this just all go back, once again to his 4.48 40? I bring up his athleticism and then it gets challenged based on his RAS which has him lower than Ward and Lattimore…because of…his 40. Its the same argument. Its like, we get it, you don’t think he is fast enough…we’ll find out if he’ll not be as good as some others all because he ran a 4.48 I guess.
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If 40 times were the be all end all for success for DBs and WRs, then why isn’t Ross from Cincinnati a top receiver.
Again this is an over simplification but you get the point!
Fair enough but I will ask the question again.
You believe he’s an elite athlete. Combine scores show otherwise and so do RAS scores. So what are you basing your claim on?
@MyLions
You are correct I do believe he’s a slight notch below those guys. I see a player that falls just short of the rest. Where your wrong is making an assumption that I’m basing it off just RAS scores. I am basing my belief on far more than that. Let me explain.
Okudah falls short in athleticism. Some point to his MPH and feel this means that he was slow out of his stance. But there’s a telling tail that this isn’t true. He falls in the POOR category in the 10 and 20 yard splits While the other CB’s mentioned all we’re elite in this category… So all together it means he’s slow to accelerate.
Then go to the film. You can see this slow to accelerate on film. It’s very apparent. That’s why people claim he’s grabby. It’s because he is grabby… he grabs the WR’s to slow their acceleration down so that he can catch up speed wise. Once he does he’s fine. But he won’t be allow to be that grabby in the NFL. The rules are far more strict on this.
Take into account that he did not face top competition at WR. What do you think happens when he does in the NFL. When he faces top level route runners who turn and accelerate quicker than he does?
Now let’s look at the stats. His stats are less than both Ward and Lattimore’s stats were per game.
Too summarize … He’s slower than they are. He doesn’t accelerate as well. His stats are less too.
Now let’s go to CB rankings. PFF has about ten different categories for ranking CB coverage scores. Okudah wasn’t first in any of those categories. In fact he wasn’t even in the top 10 in most of them. I shared those stats in a thread pre draft.
All of this combined is what I’m basing my opinion on. Not just RAS scores. RAS scores support what I see on film though.
Let me clarify what I see (which I have stated many times) but some are jumping to conclusions here because I’m not claiming he’s the second coming of Deion Sanders.
I see a CB who I believe is the most complete and NFL ready in the draft. He will be a day one starter. But I think his upside is less than CJ Henderson’s. I see a CB that is a lesser prospect than Lattimore and Ward. I see a CB that will have growing pains as he learns to be less grabby. I suspect he will struggle against WR’s who are top level route runners and those who have elite level acceleration. I expect him to be excellent against WR’s who aren’t. I think he will be strong in run support because he has good instincts, ball awareness and takes good angles. But ultimately I do not see a kid worthy of a 3OA pick. Early first round pick … yes.
For the record I do not think CJ Henderson is worthy of a top 3 pick either.
One last point here.
There’s a reason speed and acceleration are coveted in a CB. Yes some CB’s are able to overcome this. (I hope he’s the rare exception) Some are in schemes that help hide the speed issues. But the Lions put there CB’s man up more than any team in the league. We play on a fast turf as well. Speed and acceleration really matter here. If we were a grass stadium or a different scheme I’d probably feel a little differently about the pick.
Best of luck to you with those evaluations Air. I understand where you are coming from.
Concerning the PFF stuff I already pointed out to you that the same PFF clearly placed Okudah first on their list. Yet you think it matters that Okudah didn’t place first on their list…yet they placed Okudah as their #1 CB. With that in mind you chip away at that evaluation but disregard their conclusion.
I understand your speed concerns and I think those concerns are valid. I believe, as does most of the football world, that speed takes a backseat to technique, football IQ and preparation. Slay is a guy who lives on speed for example and he has plenty of it. But there is a reason he struggled so badly as a rookie and it isn’t from a lack of speed.
We have a difference of opinion here. No issue. Years back I started as a corner in high school and my own experience tells me anticipation and understanding matters more than speed…noting speed is of course essential. I was hand timed with a 4.7 all those years ago so I had speed in rural West MI! But if you are always overcoming bad decisions that speed helps you but damn…your initial decisions always put you in recovery mode. Versus a guy who knows the plays the offense is trying to run and anticipates routes better based on WR stances and set up.
Cromartie hits a grand slam talking about this exact think in the evaluation posted way back. I think you might feel better if you review that analysis as AC shares some very, very interesting thoughts about technique, hips, feet and so on that made me smile as he reviewed Okudah.
No biggie though. I love the debate as hell…what else are we doing!
I don’t believe athletes succeed because of their athletic ability. I don’t believe being strong, fast, quick and so on matters as much as being a good football player. Understanding leverage, team defense, vulnerabilities and so on. Work ethic. AND…wanting to be the best. The Jordan or Brady trait.
Thanks for the fine discussion.
But both the combine and the RAS DID show him to be an elite athlete…
Sorry he didn’t get a perfect 10…
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