Just curious what your guys opinions are on how important the TE position to an offense?
I feel like there are guys like Kelce who are like a unicorn and every team is trying to find that next unicorn. And other than Kelce and maybe Mark Andrews, there’s really no other Tight Ends that come close.
When I look at yards receiving, Kelce is leading the pack with 553 yards but for WR’s, that ranks 10th.
Again, Kelce leads in receptions as well with 47, that would be tied for 6th for WR’s.
Maybe some of it depends on the QB. I feel like Goff would be a Tight Ends best friend for feeding him stats but that doesn’t seem to hold true, Stafford never really focused on Hock either. Maybe Kelce wouldn’t get all his stats without Mahommes throwing to him?
Ebron seemed to be a bust here and went to Indy and had instant success with Luck throwing to him. The next year, Luck retires and Ebron’s stats retired with him.
I think you had the right mentality by saying someone like Kelce is a unicorn. Trying to replicate it is fool’s gold. I will add something Sean Payton said about Alvin Kamara…“if we knew he would be THIS good, we would have drafted him earlier.” That is so true, and applies to guys like Kelce and Mark Andrews as well. In fact, the Ravens DID take a TE in the 1st round before taking Andrews later. Its an interesting case study because they are both playing in the same offense.
I consider TE to be a “bonus” position that you can do without if you had to…like FB. If you want a guy that can block, put in a lineman. If you want a guy that can catch, put in a WR. Darren Waller is literally just a WR they moved to TE. Kyle Pitts had a good rookie year because they moved him to WR. But as a WR he’s not as good as Jamarr Chase or Jaylen Waddle…so what was the point?
Teams shouldn’t even think about taking a TE in the 1st round. The “traits” that get many TEs drafted that early aren’t even the traits that make for the most successful TEs in the league anyways. Getting production out of the position is about more than just the QB and the playcalling to intentionally get the guy involved in the gameplan. It requires a connection and trust level to be earned by the TE. Throwing to TEs on more than a couple of bootleg type routes puts the football at risk. Think about it. So you want a guy like Jason Witten who you KNOW you can trust to be exactly where he is supposed to be and will fight off the defender if the ball is a little off target. Teams keep taking speed guys like Eric Ebron, Noah Fant, OJ Howard, David Njoku and Evan Engram in the 1st but they aren’t consistent route runners who you can trust like Witten. So their overall production will never reach that level, because the playcaller and QB will never reach that level of trust. “Oh my, he’s so fast!” Who cares? If anything speed is a problem at TE because it screws up the natural timing of the routes and increases the chances of the guy drifting into defenders rather than sitting down in the zone.
You could say that about any tightend though. Their job is to recieve, run block and pass block. Some aren’t good blockers and others aren’t good receivers, while some excel at both.
I think a TE who is an above average blocker and and above average receiver is a very valuable tool. Like, say they are a 7/10 blocker and a 7/10 receiver. I know this isn’t super scientific, but you get the idea.
THAT guy is very valuable. Because you can add all kinds of wrinkles to your run game that aren’t possible without that extra blocking skill (see the Ravens). This helps to hold the LBs for a second longer, make the safeties keep their eyes on the line, etcetera. This opens up the pass game.
Now, if that guy is primarily a blocker (say, 10/10 blocking, 4/10 receiving), it is not as valuable. Because no one has to pay as much attention to him when he goes out for a pass. It doesn’t make the LBs and safeties ACT any different. It’s kinda like having an extra lineman, who might catch 20 balls in a season. You might as well have an extra lineman with hands that aren’t terrible.
If that guy is primarily a receiver (say 10/10 receiving, 4/10 blocking), it is not as valuable. Because nobody has to care about that guy getting a wham block on a pull, and knocking an LB on their butt. Again, it doesn’t make the LBs and safeties ACT any different. You might as well have a big WR who is willing to block.
The good thing is that these ‘balanced’ TEs are NOT usually the ones who go high in the draft. The first round TEs tend to be more like big WRs. You can get the ‘balanced’ guys later, because they don’t ‘pop’ as much at the combine, etc. It takes really deep film dives with people that understand the position to find those guys. The key is to find the guys who are 7/10 receivers and 7/10 blockers. Not the guys who are 5/10 receivers and 5/10 blockers. That’s where the scouting department can win.
I would love to find the next Gonzalez, Gates, or Gronk. Everyone would. But in terms of DRAFTING these guys, I think the balanced TE is the one to look for. And we can probably get that in the third round or later.
I understand exactly where you are coming from but I will add something to tie it back to what I have been saying. There really isn’t a such thing as a 10/10 blocking TE or a 10/10 receiving TE. At least not 99.999999% of the guys who were are talking about when we are referencing a TE. They are only 10/10 or 7/10 relative to OTHER TEs. But their actual ability as a blocking option (for instance) is far below that. A really good blocking TE is more like a 5/10 in actuality. A really good receiving TE is more like a 6/10 or maybe 7/10. They can’t block like lineman and they aren’t as good in the passing game as receivers. They are compromised players that are paid to go out and do multiple things less than the other guys tasked with doing the same things.
That’s why I call them a bonus player and puzzle piece…but not absolutely necessary. Its like putting a guy out there that is a 5/10 LB and a 5/10 DL. As a puzzle piece that’s fine. But a guy who is a 5/10 at everything he does is still a 5/10 player. Being able to do multiple things at 5/10 doesn’t suddenly make him a 9/10 player.
I pulled this portion out to discuss separately. I understand where you are coming from in theory, but reality is different. The theoretical conversation about TEs is why some people still value them so much. But once again its overthinking things and finding a way to convince yourself that a 5/10 LB is more valuable than a 7/10 LB if the 5/10 LB can also be a 5/10 DL.
Super fair points! Great response, and really well thought out. Thanks.
Also, Thank you for picking up on my point. I was not saying ANY TE would block like a Sewell… compared to a lineman, they are all poor! My (bad/not scientific/made up on the spot) rankings system were relative to OTHER tight ends.
Granted, a big part of my opinion comes from watching the college game. I tried to avoid bringing that in, because this is a Lions forum. But, I see what a guy like Schoonmaker or All does for U of M, and I see that value. I see them pull around and erase linebackers regularly. They open up running creases that would not otherwise be there. At the same time, they can get open, and run for extra yards afterwards. I can see how this freezes the LBs and safeties on run plays, and leaves them a step behind when the TE goes out for a route. So, I think there is value if you have the right guy.
Now, I do NOT think they are worthy of top-10 picks, because of all of the points you mentioned. However, I would not consider a 3rd, 4th, or 5th round pick a bad investment (depending on the team/player of course). They add value.
I suppose that might make them a ‘bonus’ or ‘puzzle’ piece. Like, if your team had NO TEs, and just carried an extra lineman or WRs, you would probably be fine. However, then you would be telegraphing your intent with your personnel. I personally love the offenses that leave defenses guessing, so I may put a higher value on that balanced TE. So, I agree with you, but still think TEs are worth it? Sigh. Nuance is hard on a message board.
It depends on how they’re used. To use your example a tight end that’s a 10/10 blocking but a 4/10 who only catches 20 passes is very valuable if you have a run heavy offense. Especially if 10 of his 20 passes are caught in the redzone for touchdowns. If he’s not fast an has trouble getting separation you don’t want to use him much between the 20’s. But if he has great size and can go up and get the ball or block out defenders that’s a very valuable skill set. It usually comes down to the coaches and how they use their players. Robert tonyan can’t make the lions roster but goes to Green Bay and becomes a pro bowl tight end. Did he get better in Green Bay? Or is it because the packers had better coaches that knew how to use his talents?
well IMO, we need all the help we can get especially if we keep putting a less-than-complete WR group on the field, TE can be another WR…if used that way and they have good hands.
Agreed, Bill Belichick’s main game plan was to take Hock away because our WR’s were all banged up and we scored a grand total of zero points. Now Hock is gone. Defenses will double St. Brown. Who else is going to beat them now!? The offense is going to struggle unless we can run the ball and Swift gets healthy, which is very unlikely based on his history of always being hurt.
This has been stated many times, but Goff is the type of QB that needs weapons. We really don’t have any right now that are healthy. But, perhaps losing is what is best right now. It’s going to be painful unfortunately.
Unless Mitchell really is ready for a larger role.I actually think Wright can do most of the things hockenson did. Half the time I didn’t notice the difference between the two.
