My Hope Needs Help Vs. My Doubt

Far from a new topic here, but I hope those in the pro Goff camp can talk me into believing.
My doubts:
They start from the eye test, I know it was early in the year, but when going for it on 4th down, why in the hell do you throw the ball out of bounds! I saw this with my eyes on more than 1 occasion. Doesn’t this scream cowardice energy as @BigNatty would say?
Would any other competent QB make these throws?
The quick 1-2 yard dump offs drove me nuts. I never saw Goff even look to make the D pay for crowding the short tosses. Why? Someone was running deep, why not TRY and throw them open a couple times a game? Granted DC worked on correcting this later in the year, but later in the year was a time teams looked past us.
The eye test sees a QB who panics when pressured not one looking to punish the D for daring to leave someone 1 on 1.
After the 1st win, why did Goff run to DC vs. players running to him? It was a scene that should lead one to questioning his leadership.
Enough on the doubts, I am a Lions fan first and foremost, I doubt very many of you can say you watched and re-watched every second of every game of the 0-16 season. I did, never missed a play, same can be said of every game since. Enough of the dumb me!
I really want to believe Goff can be the answer to our QB needs.
Goff was drafted #1 for a reason, what does he have that I’m missing?
I’m aware he has a decent arm with decent accuracy. All NFL QB’s should be capable of this.
I’m having a difficult time finding other attributes that some of you see that will put him in the category of a top 12-15 NFL QB.
I am open minded and will certainly listen, but understand saying he took a team to the SB is not a reason to believe he is a top flight NFL QB. Brad Johnson, Rex Grossman and Nick Foles have done that, doesn’t make them top flight QB’s.
Help me have the hope some of you have…


Everybody saw the same thing you saw. You can believe or not believe, we are going to suck either way.


Read this article and go watch that game. I saw the game live On tv and it was easily one of the best QB performances I’ve ever seen. Even after that game Kirk Cousins told Goff that was the best he has Personally seen a QB play In his entire career. This game wasn’t because of McVay. Goff wasn’t throwing to wide open players that were schemes open. He was dropping dimes short, intermediate, deep, inside the hashes, outside the hashes, didn’t matter.

I am not a big fan of Goff. I personally think this game was an outlier for him, but it does show you what he is capable of. I personally think he is a top 12-18 QB who can play like a top 8-12 with a very good supporting cast. The issue with that is, then you have to pay him like a top QB and it’s hard to keep that very good supporting cast around him. Goff is the type of QB that we can be annually competitive with, but probably won’t make it out of the first or second round of the playoffs. I would group him with QBs like Kirk Cousins.

That is my issue. We need to find a QB who can be elite. Someone who can carry a team when they are having an off day. Someone that can go toe to toe with a QB like Josh Allen.


As far as the Goff you saw last year, I would disregard most of what you saw early in the year. You had a QB playing with WRs he didn’t trust, and a OC that there was a clear disconnect with. Supposedly neither Goff or Lynn cared for the other.

Once Goff had someone he trusted as the OC/ play caller and he had WRs he can rely on he played much better. I personally would expect similar results. I think he takes a little more risks this year being we have better downfield WRs and he knows the system better. That will likely lead to a few more INTs, but also more big plays.


Can’t unsee throwing OB’s twice on 4th down! NO EXCUSE for that.


Look no further than what you said right here OP. You nailed it, turn on the film, throw the stats out the window. When you watch any of these guys or Goff play, they’re all in the same category


If that’s what you’re going with how about this. There’s no excuse for not having NFL WR’s, only 1 NFL TE, a D that couldn’t stop anyone so you were forced to play from behind each and every week, an OC that couldn’t coach the talent he had, etc. Yep, those 2 4th down plays defined him and there’s no chance that that isn’t who he is.


Yes - but only in moments. When he’s protected, he is VERY good. I DO think he’s a top 12-15 guy, because he is smart and does have talent.

Yes! There is definitely truth to this. 100% of QBs do better when not facing adversity. That said, Goff panics. He’s a smart guy, but when he gets pressured, he seems to lose his ability to process. I dont think he likes to get hit.

I see this too, where far lesser QBs than Goff have made it to SBs and even won them.
We can win with Goff. If they build a team around him, we could be a SB team.

One principle I teach my clients → what one man can do, another man can do.
this also pertains to → what you have already done, you can do again.

Goff’s “perfect game,” has some AMAZING plays in it…and he CAN do it again (he’s already done it).

Here’s what I notice though → the hi lights I’ve seen of Goff, he has made amazing throws into tight coverage. He HAS made great deep passes. He HAS thrown guys open. Thing is, almost none of them are on plays where he is going to take a hit. Goff doesn’t like physical confrontation. Even in that video that was just posted, that rollout play where there is a defender coming, and he has to hit a perfect window…AMAZING play. Not many guys in the NFL can do that. I think Goff can do it, and I think he can do it consistently. He IS smart enough, he has good field vision, spacial awareness, body awareness…he understand timing, angles, and distance VERY well. His inability to process quickly comes from panicking when he senses pressure, more than anything.

He definitely can learn to read defenses better, but who is going to learn to read defenses better…the guy who is in the erratic energy of panicking (nervous system is saying "fuuuck, I’ve gotta get out of here).
The guy who is in the energy of taking over (Nervous system is saying “Nice try, MF’r, I’m gonna rip your heart out for that”).

THIS is why I like Allen better than Mahommes. Mahommes is extremely talented, can make all of the throws. I like how his nervous system responds too…
Mahommes nervous system when pressured says…
“Oh yeah, watch this…I’m gonna make you pay”. It’s more a confident, yet pretty response that is reliant upon talent.
Allen’s nervous system when pressured says…
“■■■■ you, you little bitch…I’m gonna shove this football up your ass.”
Stafford is like this too, though he doesn’t have all of the attributes and talent that Allen does.
Goff’s nervous system is like “I’ve gotta get out of here before I get hurt”
Goff has to control his emotions, because he’s not a NATRUAL tough guy like Stafford/Allen.

Goff has to manage his fear, because when put in a fight or flight situation, he is a “flight” guy. I like a fighter at QB…even if they are forced to literally run, its more “■■■■ you” energy. Goff will never take on a LB - ever…regardless of game situation. Almost never to we want him to, but in the most critical of situations, in the biggest games, Josh Allen is gonna hit you with some “■■■■ you” energy.

Goff can get more of that out of himself than he has now, but it is not his nature.

Bottom line → we CAN win with Goff…and we will.
We will have a floor of a playoff team with him.
With as weak as the NFC is, we will even have a chance to get to conference championship games, maybe even SB with him (once Matt and Tom retire his chances go way up).
However, do I trust Goff to make a playoff run like Stafford did last year…where HE is counted on to bring the team back over and over again?
Do I trust Goff to beat Allen and Mahommes in those sort of duels?

These are the only question that matters.

He’s not going to lift the team, IMO. Dan is the emotional leader. Goff’s energy after winning is more like “YES!!! We did it”. Allen/Stafford/Brady are more like, “I told ya, MF’rz. Mess with me, and this will happen every time.”
It’s SO much harder and a lot lines up naturally when there is a good team.

The “screw you” energy of a warrior…“we’re going to battle” vs “let’s go win a game.”

It’s not fair to want Goff to be more durably built, to want him to run more powerfully, to be able to pull away from tackles, etc. It IS fair to want more warrior energy from him.

Dan IS giving him warrior training, just by being who he is as well as the exposure to the environment he’s in. The Lions have a ton of very committed, strong, healthy, warrior energy in that building → amazing amounts of it, really.

I love Goff, but I’m probably always going to wish he was emotionally/spiritually tougher.


It was dumb. Against the Vikings he saw the flag fly and thought the play would be replayed. Against the Bengals both tackles were immediately beat and he was running toward the sideline with everyone covered. Would it be better to take a 10 yard sack?

If you’re going to stay hung up on that why bother to have hope at all?

Maybe replay the Cards game highlights. Against a top ten defense he statically and eye test played a better game that I’ve seen a Lions QB play in decades


So on a free play, you throw it away?

Would be better to throw a long or medium interception for sure. Giving up is not the warrior spirit in either scenario.


Exactly. I would have to go back to re watch to remember exactly what happened, but he could have just as easily thrown up a prayer that was pick sixed. Not saying Goff made the right move, but those decisions don’t make an entire season. He clearly was playing with zero confidence and no trust in his weapons or play callers.

Assuming this roster isn’t completely decimated with injuries on offense, Goff has no excuses. He’s got the line, the weapons, and what should be a solid running game. He has an OC that he’s raved about and a staff that clearly believes in him. Time to put up or shut up


Aside from ‘warrior spirit’ mumbo jumbo, with nobody open, the receivers he had, and under pressure running for your life. But sure. let’s crucify him for it.


The “hope” in the original post was just a ruse. The only point to the thread was to bitch about Goff and yell at anyone who disagrees. Because god knows we don’t have enough threads like that.


Not crucifying him for it, especially as a stand alone.
You asked a question…I answered. If you want to know what to do…the answer is never going to be “just whip it out of bounds”

Warrior spirit is something Dan and Brad mention regularly. They talk about several players saying, “we like him because he’s got a lot of dog in him.”

If that’s “mumbo jumbo” to you, that’s cool. We’ll just disagree on it. I’d be drafting and acquiring players that “have a lot of dog in 'em” though.

…just like Brad and Dan.

Goff can improve on his “Dog energy,” and he will. How much? I have no idea…

I like the guy and am rooting for him. I’m analyzing, not crucifying (feels like pretty strong langauging). My best case scenario is that he DOES win, and that he improves his “dog energy” that I call “warrior energy.”

That mumbo jumbo is the sorta shit that wins titles for a lot of teams. If you want to know what “culture” dan is building, call it “Mumbo-Jumbo” energy. That’s what the Dan Campbell culture is.

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To me it’s still a mumbo-jumbo way to describe competitiveness. Like ‘pound the rock’. Which was equally ham-handed. I don’t think Goff isn’t uncompetitive. I mean the guy popped a broken thumb back into place and kept playing then won a playoff game a couple weeks later

While you in particular may not be crucifying Goff for those plays the OP and a few others are making it clear that’s the particular reason to not have hope. Which, in my eyes, is both myopic and emotional


What a quality take!
I won’t take it the wrong way, some of what you post is correct, however, it’s not hard to search my posts for bitching about Goff. I will give you a $1.00 for each Goff sucks post by me and you give me .01 cent for me never mentioning Goff. If you agree, I’m closer to retirement than I thought. :money_mouth_face:
Not a fan on this board who wants Goff to get us to the SB more than me. I am looking for some insights to what I might be missing, could be talent, inner strength(Thanks @BigNatty), ability to read the D! Who knows! I will be looking for the +'s.
Thanks @detroit1811 and others for some film highlights.


I would actually wager that probably everyone on this board watched every game of the 0-16 season. Our masochism runs Honolulu blue


Neither do i. I never said he wasn’t. Of the 333 million people in the United States, he is the 12-15 best at playing QB. That is amazing.
I’d play darts with my last girlfriend. She was competitive as hell. She also had zero “dog” in her (well, aside from me). :wink:

We all see the world through our own lens. You’re partially misinterpreting me. No big deal.
One thing I am not going to do is call your views “Ham-handed mumbo jumbo,” because that just creates a circular argument, borne of emotions which create a myopic inability to see things from another person’s point of view.

I get it. you like Goff better than Stafford.
You get it. I like Stafford better than Goff.
We disagree.

Neither one of us own a football team, coach football, etc, etc. I don’t think I’m smarter than you, nor am I trying to force you to take on my opinion.

If Matt and Goff were the exact same size, and they got into a fist fight…Stafford would pummel him in seconds…because of “Dog Energy/Mumbo-jumbo/Ham-handed/warrior”. whatever you want to call it.

I expect the Lions to win 10 games next year with Goff @ QB
I think Goff could get us to the playoffs 7 or 8 of the next 10 seasons.
I also think it would be great to have an emotionally tougher QB.
Based on what I have seen so far, I feel we would have a better chance at SBs if Goff had more warrior energy. Different energies are wielded by different archetypes and there are dozens of books about this ham-handed mumbo-jumbo, if you ever care to understand it.

Competitiveness is not how I would describe “warrior spirit.”
Goff has plenty of competitiveness.
Warrior spirit is a component of competitiveness.
If it makes you more comfortable, I will start calling it “panic to lesser degree,” which is what warrior spirit would insight (in my ham-handed, mumbo jumbo way of seeing it).

Discrediting other ppl’s views, ideas, language patterns, etc will never do anything other than create circular arguments.

Christ almighty, if only a universe existed with nuance — instead people are “crucifying” (histrionic much?) him for playing like shit a portion of last year and the two years before that.

Could be the Goffigals like yourself see his potential from a few years back and the end of last season as indicative of a player with signifcant upside, and others aren’t remotely sold because they also have evidence (perhaps more) that leaves them skeptical of his ability as a starting QB.

Doesn’t mean they don’t like him or root for him.

Imagine having the audacity to be skeptical of a QB another team begged a historically inept franchise to take.

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I think the players respect Goff, so I don’t think this is a problem, otherwise, why would wide recievers work out with him in the offseason. We will see with transpires this year. He has the talent around him now. He should have at least top ten in every category on offense, offensive line, running game, wide reciever (arguably), tight end (arguably). Barring injury this should be at least a top ten offense with good QB play.

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