I agree. But here’s the difference: McDaniels can say “I know what I’m talking about”, at least. He probably would’ve hired an experienced DC. Granted, all of this is speculation. But it applies. With an inexperienced roster, you need experienced coaches. I believe, the fundamentals are not being used because of a lack of experience in the coaching ranks.
I agree but I do not think that was the plan .
The plan has been implemented , hiring Paul P as DC was brilliant if the plan was to have one voice , one mantra , one take on how things get done and how it is to get done within the system only.
Paul P was not going to set the NFL world on fire , Paul P was an an extension of Patricia and why he is still here , not results as far as wins but to be a backbone, someone 100% all in on what the HC Patricia was saying and how he wanted it done , no dissent or undermining behind closed doors.
He hired a teacher that was on board 100% fundamentally and could be trusted and a teacher that would have zero issues with weaning out guys that were undermining what Patrica was trying to accomplish .
Our next Defensive CO is in house or a current or former Belichick disciple from outside. Patricia needs the contract length to get the current staff up to the task, in order to promote from within , this is how it is done , outsiders not welcome .
One voice , one way , all in . This was a full blown culture change and philosophy change . The only error was stating 9-7 was not good enough by Quinn . He needed to be honest with a fan base as knowledgeable as Lions fans are and just say something like …
"We are going to do it my way now I tried with what was here and it did not happen…Now it’s my turn and things are likely to get worse before they get better, this organization was a shit show before I got here and these things take time…but I have a plan , brought in my people & the owner has my back and I will deliver with Patricia what the fans expect… but I need 5 years with Matt at minimum to get it done, be patient and you will be rewarded. "
I could live with that and would have preferred brutal honesty .
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I think you need to do more research on the situation. McDaniels crashed so hard as a HC that he lost his team after only 6 games in his 1st season. AND THEY WERE WINNING! How awful of a “leader” do you have to be to lose a team on a win streak? But that’s what happened. He didn’t even make it thru his 2nd year with the team, as the guys completely quit. I’m not sure on what level Josh could say “I know what I’m talking about” and have more credibility than a fresh Matt Patricia.
And no, we don’t have to speculate on who McDaniels might hire as his DC. He hired Matt Eberflus when he thought he was going to be the Colts HC. Matt Eberflus has never been a DC in the NFL, and spent most of his time in the NFL as the linebackers coach for the Dallas Cowboys. Which is funny, because he replaced Paul Pasqualoni as the Cowboys linebackers coach. Eberflus has also never held a head coaching job on any level. Paul P. has been a HC for 3 different teams and has 20 years of HC experience.
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Problem with that is there are not many winning coaches just sitting out there on the streets. Either you find an unknown or you pick up someone who failed on a previous team. And honestly I think the best head coaches are someone who can multi task, good with handling people, thorough understanding of the rules of the game and the sense to bring people in who know know the Xs and Os on offense and defense. Understanding your limitations and being humble enough to accept them is a key ingredient in a HC in my book. You have enough on your plate and you need to be able to properly delegate.
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Lots of great convo here. I really appreciate you guys. Learning from some of your angles, thoughts, ideas, and facts. Good stuff.
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I’m not advocating for McDaniels. My point is: If you wanna turn over a roster for a schematic change: Get an experienced coach that has knowledge of the situation. Not a guy who’s living off the coattails of someone else.
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But nothing ever pointed to going the route of a successful HC , a successful HC had success for a reason . The plan and strategy they had worked , what HC that was successful was going to come in here and do it the way Quinn wanted it done and abandon what made them successful , Quinn’s only choices were Hoodie (Not available) Patricia or McDaniel’s …Josh to me was Schwartz and his ego to big and really his own guy even with the Hoodie who let Josh do what Josh does . Patricia was the best choice next to getting the Hoodie to implement his vision and from what was said by Wood , Quinn was hiring Patricia from the day he was hired .
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Excellent points NYL. I might add to it that we gotta remember when MP got hired, it was right after the SB, the last possible point to hire staff. There is the belief that he went with someone familiar and who he could trust in the beginning…to go to your point…it would have been insane to change both OC and DC in one offseason. I think the OC was more imperative give how horrible the offense was last year and how the defense finished. I would imagine PP is fired or takes a lesser position and a patriot disciple comes in…if the titans were to fire Vrabel, I wouldn’t mind seeing him come in. I doubt though he is out there.
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I hope P&Q can fortify our defense in our next offseason, their butts should be uncomfortable -again I’m giving them a shot to redeem …I lean MUCH heavier on Quinn being he’s The GM and the one making picks & decisions.
I expected 10 wins or more in 2019 and got smacked in the face again-but been there done that.
I’m reeeally NOT wanting a full re-build because we do have some nice pieces on this team.
but Quinn better have our defense ready to stand tall in 2020 !
I actually think Paul. P is part of the plan still , I don’t see so much the scheme being the problem as much as the players not being able to implement it , some can, some cant . I have seen a lot of plays made by offenses against our defense that were just great plays or lucky plays , plays made that you just have to tip your cap to the offense on. Last year with Tabor or others it was plays made because they were slow or out of position or slow in diagnosing . Our LB’s not getting it done . Injuries have been huge when you look at the Defense and how we finished last year , the players not the system or the coaching being the issue . The offense is a fundamental thing but I think Bevel is the right guy and on the same page but Patricia is hands off I think . So more leeway is given and changes can be made offensively but that is not the case with the Defense …one way , and one way only on Defense and in how the roster is built . I think BO is a keeper I love the signing and love the idea of BO and KJ in a 1-2 punch with McKissic filling out the Riddick role…I hope to Christ BO buys in on blocking as I see that being an issue but I hope for the best.
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The problem is we have two uncomfortable options. If we blow it up it needs to be now not later. But we don’t really know if year 3 may actually be the year we begin to see things come together. My gut tells me MP does not have it. As others have said - the defense is just to awful given the players he has to work with. He was touted as a defensive mastermind yet he keeps putting the same scheme in every week and getting torched. Either a lot of players are not playing for him or the defensive coaches are just bad. Great coaches get inspired play from their players even when they ultimately lose. I have not seen much inspired play out of the defense and that is on MP. And if you blame it on the player then that is on Quinn. 1 or both are epic failures at this point. Frankly I am OK staying the course one more year but would not shed a tear if they were fired today either.
There is literally ZERO empirical data that states in the salary cap era it should take longer than 3 years to turn a team around.
I don’t see how you can say it takes a long time for a rebuild in the salary cap era.
What examples are you referencing? Where did you get that information?
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Although I cannot provide tangible reasons in wins and losses to defend Patricia, you’ve repeatedly used the three years as a barometer but you’ve been pounding the table for over a month on the subject even before 1 and 1/2 years had been completed??
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I can say I’d love to be a fly on the wall in Quinn and Patricia’s conversations about the defense. With both of their jobs on the line whether it’s one more year or two, it has to be an obsession.
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Think it depends on the situation as I don’t think there is empirical evidence that suggest how long a rebuild should take, UNDER 3 YEARS OR OVER. It depends on the talent on the roster when the rebuild begins, the GM/HC combination and vision and philosophy, cap space, schedule and luck.
You cant point to data unless you are comparing apples to apples…If the teams you are referring to are or were in near identical situations , current quality , roster turn over , salary cap to spend , draft selections , etc …Just knowing what needed to be done here and the turnover needed while having large chunks dedicated to current positions , also knowing the players needed and skill sets to run what Patricia in particular wants to be able to run and be multiple on Defense, the players we rostered did not fit & many still do not , injuries at key spots have all taken it’s toll on the turn around as far as masking a lack of talent or fit . Quinn is not 4 years in on his vision , it’s 1.5 years of a 5 year plan …Abandoning it now makes no sense and not fair to the GM or Coach expecting to be a 10 or 11 win team right now was not realistic , we could have been but injuries cost us that and we do not have the depth to mask it .
In a world were the Oakland Raiders are 6-4, 1.5 years after the biggest tear down in recent NFL history I just don’t see how you guys think this should take 3 years let alone 5.
I also think it’s crazy to think a GM would launch a plan for a 5 year rebuild plan with a 30 year quarterback being paid top of the market money. That’s just illogical.
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The Lions, coming off of a 9-7 season and being “too talented” to only achieve that record, was one of the best situations for a new head coach to walk into by any measure. If anything, Patricia should have higher expectations, not lower.
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The 3 year mark is a pretty solid point, if you are letting available data be your guide. If you look up every team and every coach in modern football (aka salary cap era), you’ll notice a pattern. Coaches who are going to be successful, typically are successful sometime in the first 2 years on the job. Not all, but its a good bet that they were. Then comes year 3. Some teams were rewarded by sticking with the guy for a 3rd season after not being successful in the first 2. However, many teams were not rewarded and it was a wasted year. After year 3 the data is stacked against keeping the coach. Teams that have stuck with coaches who were not successful in their first 3 years were not typically rewarded in year 4 or year 5. Its basically pissing up a rope at that point.
We agree on the time it should take to start winning. However, can we at least give the Raiders until the end of the year and see where they shake out? I mean, the 2007 Lions weren’t very good but started out 6-2 (and were 6-4 after 10 games). Don’t crown them just yet.
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