2025 KCS Scores Post-Combine

NFL Detroit Lions
1

I guess I’ll drop KCS (knee cap scores) v1 for 2025 since @HSVLion asked about it. Things to keep in mind: Only dropping guys with full KCS scores. Since most guys don’t test enough at the combine to get a RAS, v2 will come after pro days when more guys have actually tested, and even then, it won’t be fully complete since some guys just won’t test.

If you don’t know what my KCS grading system is, you can go through the birthing threads here:

Part 1: Who is a ‘Brad Holmes’ draft pick?: Diving into Brad’s pick history - The Den
Part 2: Who is a ‘Brad Holmes draft pick’? Pt. 2: PFF Score Eligible Players - The Den
Part 3: Who is a ‘Brad Holmes’ draft pick?: Pt. 3: The Knee Cap Score - The Den

It’s essentially a formula that takes Brad Holmes previous draft picks and applies it to the current draft year’s picks. It’s been a pretty decent indicator of guys the Lions will target based on production and athletic ability, but will never account for the intangibles. It’s purely metric based. Though, this year, I’d like to work with @Thats2 to try and filter guys who definitely do or don’t hit our intangibles, but aside from that, I have no interest into trying to insert subjective things like motor into an objective data set.

Here is a breakdown of former Holmes’ picks with the Lions by round through year 4:

Round # of Picks AVG RAS AVG PFF AVG KCS
RD 1 6 9.2 89.1 90.11
RD 2 5 7.78 86.6 82.21
RD 3 5 7.36 84.5 80.73
RD 4 4 8.09 78.3 79.23
RD 5 2 6.99 82.5 78.09
RD 6 4 8.96 83.5 85.63
RD 7 3 6.6 71.5 69.59

Current 2025 rankings based on players who have RAS scores already:

PFF RANK PLAYER POS SCHOOL RAS PFF KCS
51 Jayden Higgins WR IOWA STATE 9.85 90.3 93.17
24 Armand Membou T MISSOURI 9.81 90.4 93.095
55 Quinshon Judkins HB OHIO STATE 9.89 88.8 92.335
132 Damien Martinez HB MIAMI FL 9.32 91.1 91.835
116 David Walker ED CENT ARK 8.53 94.6 91.345
26 Omarion Hampton HB N CAROLINA 9.61 88.4 91.095
31 Darius Alexander DI TOLEDO 9.2 90.1 90.765
70 TreVeyon Henderson HB OHIO STATE 9.43 88.4 90.465
8 Jahdae Barron CB TEXAS 9 90.7 90.455
210 Tyler Shough QB LOUISVILLE 9.53 87.4 90.165
96 Tre Harris WR OLE MISS 9.02 89.7 89.875
97 Harold Fannin Jr. TE BOWL GREEN 7.82 95.9 89.705
12 James Pearce Jr. ED TENNESSEE 9.34 87.1 89.305
45 Princely Umanmielen ED OLE MISS 8.5 91.1 88.965
41 Landon Jackson ED ARKANSAS 9.88 82.9 88.465
80 Elijah Roberts ED SMU 8.29 91.1 88.23
11 Jihaad Campbell LB ALABAMA 9.95 81.6 87.865
133 Tory Horton WR COLO STATE 9.71 82.3 87.48
255 Raheim Sanders HB S CAROLINA 9.87 81.2 87.325
38 Jack Bech WR TCU 9.46 83 87.06
92 Devin Neal HB KANSAS 8.55 87.9 87.06
109 Will Howard QB OHIO STATE 8.75 86.4 86.785
43 Nick Emmanwori S S CAROLINA 10 79.6 86.74
229 Logan Brown T KANSAS 9.45 82.5 86.7
23 Shemar Stewart ED TEXAS A&M 10 79.5 86.675
98 Jared Wilson C GEORGIA 9.98 79.6 86.67
88 Wyatt Milum T W VIRGINIA 7.85 91 86.625
59 Darien Porter CB IOWA STATE 9.99 79.4 86.575
175 Marcus Yarns HB DELAWARE 8.95 84.9 86.51
28 Donovan Ezeiruaku ED BOSTON COL 7.97 90 86.395
110 CJ West DI INDIANA 9.14 83.6 86.33
317 Jared Harrison-Hunte DI SMU 9.66 80.8 86.33
82 Jaylin Noel WR IOWA STATE 9.71 80.5 86.31
184 Brady Cook QB MISSOURI 9.71 80.4 86.245
40 Trey Amos CB OLE MISS 8.72 85.6 86.16
280 Drew Kendall C BOSTON COL 9.86 78.8 85.73
19 Kelvin Banks Jr. T TEXAS 8.25 86.2 84.905
84 RJ Harvey HB UCF 8.41 85.1 84.75
264 Teddye Buchanan LB CAL 9.77 77.5 84.57
208 Tai Felton WR MARYLAND 9.6 78 84.3
87 Jalen Royals WR UTAH ST 9.27 79.6 84.185
281 Elijhah Badger WR FLORIDA 9.44 78.6 84.13
241 Clay Webb G JVILLE ST 8.75 82 83.925
166 Connor Colby G IOWA 9.62 77.1 83.785
174 Danny Stutsman LB OKLAHOMA 9.7 76.6 83.74
32 Demetrius Knight Jr. LB S CAROLINA 8.53 82.8 83.675
149 Pat Bryant WR ILLINOIS 8.19 84.5 83.59
137 Brashard Smith HB SMU 7.07 90.3 83.44
100 DJ Giddens HB KANSAS ST 9.78 75.7 83.435
36 T.J. Sanders DI S CAROLINA 8.52 82.4 83.38
104 Tate Ratledge G GEORGIA 9.98 74.4 83.29
233 Ty Robinson DI NEBRASKA 9.84 75.1 83.255
191 Tahj Brooks HB TEXAS TECH 8.28 83.3 83.125
61 Aireontae Ersery T MINNESOTA 9.35 77.5 83.1
113 Aeneas Peebles DI VA TECH 7.16 89.1 82.975
181 Bhayshul Tuten HB VA TECH 9.29 77.4 82.825
75 Terrance Ferguson TE OREGON 9.81 73.9 82.37
143 Tyler Batty ED BYU 8.88 78.5 82.105
134 Antwaun Powell-Ryland ED VA TECH 8.86 78.6 82.1
35 Elic Ayomanor WR STANFORD 9.67 74.1 82.01
150 Tyler Baron ED MIAMI FL 9.3 76 81.95
205 Jackson Slater G SACRAMENTO 9.2 76.4 81.86
276 Carson Vinson T ALAB A&M 9.39 75.2 81.745
33 Josh Conerly Jr. T OREGON 8.76 78.3 81.555
73 Ozzy Trapilo T BOSTON COL 9.02 76.8 81.49
188 Jalin Conyers TE TEXAS TECH 9.24 75.6 81.48
290 Donovan Edwards HB MICHIGAN 9.68 73.2 81.46
6 Will Campbell T LSU 9.86 72.2 81.44
162 Upton Stout S W KENTUCKY 7.59 84.4 81.425
74 Chris Paul Jr. LB OLE MISS 7.04 87.2 81.32
86 Jonah Savaiinaea T ARIZONA 9.13 75.9 81.29
244 Ethan Downs ED OKLAHOMA 8.64 78.5 81.265
261 Mac McWilliams CB UCF 8.04 81.6 81.18
201 Chimere Dike WR FLORIDA 9.65 72.9 81.16
123 Nohl Williams CB CAL 8.32 80 81.12
145 Jarquez Hunter HB AUBURN 7.99 81.5 80.94
95 Tez Johnson WR OREGON 7.66 83.1 80.825
246 Joshua Gray G OREGON ST 9.5 72.9 80.635
219 Fadil Diggs ED SYRACUSE 9.29 74 80.615
236 Smael Mondon Jr. LB GEORGIA 9.42 72.4 80.03
106 Jacob Parrish CB KANSAS ST 8.95 74.7 79.88
235 Isaac TeSlaa WR ARKANSAS 9.97 69.1 79.81
302 Jaylin Lane WR VA TECH 9.56 71.1 79.675
222 Hunter Wohler S WISCONSIN 9.55 70.9 79.51
155 Trevor Etienne HB GEORGIA 7.39 82.5 79.49
157 Kyle Williams WR WASH STATE 7.84 79.9 79.375
203 Miles Frazier G LSU 9.59 70.4 79.325
66 Kyle Kennard ED S CAROLINA 8.28 77 79.03
120 Barryn Sorrell ED TEXAS 9.27 71.5 78.92
112 Jonas Sanker S VIRGINIA 8.96 72.8 78.68
268 Roc Taylor WR MEMPHIS 8.55 74.4 78.285
252 Seth Henigan QB MEMPHIS 7.11 81.7 77.99
213 Jason Marshall Jr. CB FLORIDA 9.03 71.2 77.885
223 Ja’Quinden Jackson HB ARKANSAS 7.25 80.5 77.7
195 Ollie Gordon II HB OKLA STATE 8.09 75.8 77.585
42 Maxwell Hairston CB KENTUCKY 9.71 67 77.535
189 Jordan James HB OREGON 6.04 86.2 77.17
262 Tonka Hemingway DI S CAROLINA 8.84 70.9 77.025
176 Robert Longerbeam CB RUTGERS 8.78 71.2 77.01
196 Jaylin Smith CB USC 6.43 82.6 76.195
94 Anthony Belton T NC STATE 8.07 73.6 76.085
190 Junior Tafuna DI UTAH 7.45 76.9 76.06
192 Zeek Biggers DI GA TECH 9.54 65 75.64
321 Joe Huber G WISCONSIN 8.85 68.7 75.63
91 Jeffrey Bassa LB OREGON 7.93 73.4 75.465
130 Ahmed Hassanein ED BOISE ST 6.39 81.4 75.275
169 Jah Joyner ED MINNESOTA 7.1 76.7 74.705
207 Ricky White WR UNLV 6.12 80.8 73.94
167 Thomas Fidone II TE NEBRASKA 9.37 62.6 73.485
299 CJ Dippre TE ALABAMA 9.62 60.6 73.06
180 John Williams T CINCINNATI 6.82 75.3 72.815
99 Dorian Strong CB VA TECH 6.97 73.9 72.43
286 Nazir Stackhouse DI GEORGIA 6.43 75.2 71.385
284 Eric Gregory DI ARKANSAS 6.34 75.3 71.135
308 Arian Smith WR GEORGIA 9.43 57.7 70.51
118 Mello Dotson CB KANSAS 5.75 77.1 70.24
10 Malaki Starks S GEORGIA 5.49 78.3 70.11
78 Jordan Phillips DI MARYLAND 6.68 71.4 69.79
141 Mitchell Evans TE NOTRE DAME 7.8 65.3 69.745
121 Jalen Rivers T MIAMI FL 6.73 70.7 69.51
285 Eugene Asante LB AUBURN 8.01 63.7 69.44
200 Jay Higgins LB IOWA 3.61 87 69.185
161 Jackson Hawes TE GA TECH 7.14 67.8 69.06
251 Moliki Matavao TE UCLA 7.58 65.3 68.975
322 Tommy Akingbesote DI MARYLAND 6.18 72.6 68.82
152 Kobe Hudson WR UCF 5.85 74.3 68.77
209 Luke Lachey TE IOWA 8.69 58.8 68.635
247 Xavier Truss T GEORGIA 7.81 62 67.635
171 Kyle Monangai HB RUTGERS 4.94 77.2 67.47
283 Da’Quan Felton WR VA TECH 8.21 59.3 67.28
117 Jamaree Caldwell DI OREGON 4.27 80.3 67.14
135 Zy Alexander CB LSU 3.96 81.2 66.64
199 Kaden Prather WR MARYLAND 7.4 62.3 66.395
304 Konata Mumpfield WR PITTSBURGH 6.01 69.7 66.34
76 Joshua Farmer DI FLORIDA ST 7.14 63.5 66.265
206 Alijah Clark S SYRACUSE 6.99 63.9 66
232 LaJohntay Wester WR COLORADO 4.9 74 65.25
270 Shemar James LB FLORIDA 6.98 59.6 63.17
125 Brandon Crenshaw-Dickson T FLORIDA 3.1 80.3 63.045
298 BJ Adams CB UCF 4.77 69.2 61.675
151 Jake Briningstool TE CLEMSON 6.3 58.8 60.27
77 Sebastian Castro S IOWA 4.32 66.2 58.15
48 Tyler Booker G ALABAMA 4.15 66.5 57.75
272 Jabbar Muhammad CB OREGON 2.33 76.2 57.685
114 Gunnar Helm TE TEXAS 4.49 62.3 56.21
295 Bryson Nesbit TE N CAROLINA 3.59 63 53.515
243 Dante Trader Jr. S MARYLAND 2.13 68.4 51.915

What does it all mean? Who knows.

10 Likes
2

And honestly, intangibles-wise, the vast majority of guys are gonna be “I don’t know.” There’s some outliers on either end - guys excessively lauded for their work ethic/character and guys trashed for it or off-field red flags - but it’s a pretty small percentage overall.

(I suppose you could also say that guys with really hot motors rarely have bad work ethic and at least that can be gleaned from the tape, but otherwise we just aren’t privy to enough info.)

But what we can do is make buckets of yes and no for the guys where we do have the info. I’ve already started to work on it, but it will pretty much have to be constantly updated.

3 Likes
3

And this doesn’t even get into position specific metrics, like the fact that there is a clear correlation between PFF run defense grade and the DBs that we draft.

4

Right. It’s gonna be a process of elimination exercise for sure. We’ll try and get a big group first based on KCS + intangibles (where possible) then make further cuts from there.

5

Does the knee cap score include bonuses for attending Bama? Cause we draft someone in round 1 every year from Bama. That’s a guarantee. Extra points if you recently tore an acl.

3 Likes
6

Speaking of PFF scores, I saw an ad for game film evaluators the other day. I can’t recall if it was an internship or just a very low wage job, but it seems they hire kids to go through the games and do the scores. Not professional level evaluation or even close. It’s no one even on the level of Sam and Steve.

7

It’s my understanding that they have the newbies do the grunt work, but it has to be approved by someone higher. This is the last posting I remember seeing from them: PFF is hiring part-time data collection analysts!

Obviously, they’re not perfect and we will definitely see scores from time to time that will make us shake our heads and go ‘huh?’ They still consistently put out a dataset that I don’t think is too far off from the eye test and even if you don’t agree with their grades (like basically every college RB being a 85+ lmfao), they’re still a good source for some deeper analytics that aren’t easily available elsewhere.

I don’t swear by PFF, but I also don’t think they’re as bad as they’re made out to be. I take it for what it is.

3 Likes
8

We think they’re great when they say our guys were great, we think they’re stupid when they say our guys sucked.

3 Likes
9

The kings of confirmation bias!

1 Like
10

To be honest, I’ve bounced around the idea of applying for one of their part-time positions so I can actually see their processes and see what they train their graders to look for. Get $50-60 to watch some tape and make some grades? Shit, I do that for free now.

5 Likes
11

:+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5::+1:t5:

This is Awesome.

2 Likes
12

Do it. For the good of the board.

2 Likes
13

This…

2 Likes
14

Celebrate Its Friday GIF by telenet

When @Davicus drops KCS for the upcoming draft.

2 Likes
15

Awesome buddy. THANKS!!!

1 Like
16

tenor

1 Like