Strangely when we had the 3rd best defense in the league that was tied for sixth most defensive turnovers our offense was a pedestrian 14th
I have no issues with Goff as a starter under our current circumstances. It’s an offense he helped build and operates it at a high level.
I’m just simply stating he is a QB with limitations. I don’t think he is viewed, outside of this organization/fan base, as a franchise guy. There are reasons for that…that’s basically the point I am making here.
He is a current a top 10 QB in the NFL headed into 2023. For me, and again I will probably get roasted for saying this…the QB position is maybe the weakest it’s ever been. It definitely lacks the star power of the past. There are not 10 QBs better than Jared Goff right now. But is that because Goff is so good, or because the overall talent at the position has dropped off? Idk maybe I just don’t know what I’m talking about…
Let me ask you one thing. You said he is not a tier 1 guy at this time. Do you honestly think he can ever be one? See this is where I just can’t get on board. I’ve seen him play more than enough to come to the conclusion he isn’t capable of being a tier 1 guy.
Well there are only maybe 2 teir one guys in Burrow and Mahomes. Allen is close. As a Rams fan I loved Goff and love Stafford. Never once did I think upgrading from these guys was or is a realistic option.
I’d argue the QB position is as good as its ever been. The league has never had guys talented as Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Burrow, Rodgers, ect all playing in the same era. Also, the new league rules also opens the game up for these type of QBs. Back in the day they would have got hit much more. But if anything Goff is knocked for playing in a era where flash is more important than winning.
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We’ll never know how it would have played out, but it’s certainly true that a better defense may well have changed the offensive numbers.
On one hand, a better defense = more stops = more leads = more ball-control/running by the Lions late = fewer passing attempts for Goff.
OTOH, a better defense = more stops = more offensive possessions = more passing attempts for Goff.
Which effect is likely to be stronger depends on the details. My guess is that his numbers would have gone up because Ben Johnson isn’t an especially conservative play caller and, above all, because number of possessions/game is probably the greatest single predictor of offensive output. In any case, it’s not at all obvious that “his numbers are what they would have been” even w/a better defense.
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Not really.
I’ve compiled the last four years’ worth of offensive and defensive statistics. Plotting the ranks (1-32) of the offenses and defenses doesn’t yield much of a correlation:
I’ve run it every which way, using defensive yards per game, points per game, and plays per game versus offensive yards per game and points per game… it comes out similarly every time.
At least based on 2019 - 2022, there’s no correlation between defensive performance and offensive performance.
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You could have just said “I disagree”.
This is a silly counter. The offense was not the issue and was putting points up at a high rate. They had the most 30 point games in the NFL. He is a risk adverse qb. His numbers last year are not far off what his career highs are…he is what he was last year.
He definitely did. As I said in my post, I’ve watched his entire career and he absolutely did a ton of shoot outs, not just the KC game. He is on record as saying he LOVES a shootout as a QB, but that he learned long ago that he needs to play in the flow of the game. It’s even failed KC from time to time and they are the best at it.
I don’t think Goff is the greatest to play the game. He’s not elite. He’s below average when the pocket breaks down. Rodgers was always better at this. What I’ve seen Goff be better at than any other QB I’ve followed is distributing the football around with pinpoint accuracy. He takes what the defense gives him and what his weapons allow. If it’s a running game, he is fine to hand off the ball and grind out a win. If it’s over the top, he can do that too (though he hasn’t much with the Lions). If it’s 1k short routes to Kupp or St. Brown, he will do that too.
Justin fields doesn’t strike me as the type that will ever be able to do that. Josh Allen likes to force it and hence all the interceptions.
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Good info. But still my statement is still true, when I pulled the list of the top 16 offenses of all time, more often than not they had a top ten defense with an average of 11th ranked
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True, but not necessarily representative.
For the 2019-2022 seasons, the 20 teams that had a top-5 offense were just as likely to have a top-10 defense as not.
Four of those teams had a top 5 defense, three had a bottom 5 defense.
This is counter-expectational to me, too, but there just is no meaningful correlation between offensive and defensive performance.
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Good stuff. And we can look to our own Lions for examples. When we last had a top five defense the offense was a pedestrian 14th and the last time we had a top five offense the defense was a bad 27th
I’d still posit that when a QB has trust in his defense he’s going to play with more confidence. It would be interesting to see if theres any coorleation witn a tendency to attack downfield if the defense is better
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If Goff is to ever crack tier 1 type of level…
I think Goff needs to really commit to becoming a better athlete.
Obviously… he is never going to be a great athlete…
but just becoming stronger could reduce fumbles…
and improving foot quickness can hel reduce sacks and maybe improve off schedule plays.
He doesn’t look like a guy that spends much time with weights in his hands… and his feet aren’t really quicker than Brady…
who is over 15 years older. That is something that can be worked on and improved…. and I do think his pocket movement was a bit better this past season.
I like that he is accurate and throws a very catchable ball.
Has enough arm strength. Seems to make good decisions when protected.
I can get behind this statement. It’s an honest and fair assessment…….especially about what he does do well, bc he isn’t a bad qb and he is very good at getting the ball to the open guy………
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It is certainly not the best it’s ever been. And if you could point out any 5 year window in the last 30 years that has a weaker/less proven top 10, I’ll entertain your point. And just to throw this out there because I can see it coming, QB rating is not a statistic that can be judged from different 5 year time frames. So I hope if you do choose to entertain the challenge of finding a weaker group, you don’t use this as a sticking point.
The Josh Allen “dissing” is quite ridiculous imo and many here do it. If you have criticisms for a QB the caliber of Josh Allen, I would hope you don’t feel Goff is a franchise type guy. Because the talent level, play making ability, and toughness are off the charts for Josh Allen.
Goff could be a tier 2 QB…but the difference between tier 1 and tier 2 is massive. Josh Allen without a doubt is a tier 1 QB. There’s nothing wrong with the top 3 QBs of this “era.” It’s the dropoff after that that is weak.
I’m not “dissing” Allen. I just think Burrow and Mahomes are definitely better. You disagree? That’s fine but that doesn’t mean I’m dissing him lol.
Personally, I find if someone is making a point its usually better to prove your own point then make a claim and have someone else do it for you. But I digress. Here’s a few random stats…
These are stats of top 10 passing leaders in the last 20 years or so.
In 2015 some guys that were top 10.
Eli Manning
Blake Bortkes
Kirk Cousins
Ryan Tannehill
In 2010.
Joe Flacco
Kyle Orton
Matt Schaub
In 2005
Kerry Collins
Matt Hasselbeck
Drew Bledsoe
In 2000
Jeff Garcia
Vinny Testervde
Steve Beuerlien
Personally, I’d say the last 10 years has been the peak of QB play. With the rules being a big reason why.
And you could have just said that you have no interest in an informed exchange.
Noted.
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It’s not strange….Joe Lombardi was the OC and Jim Caldwell insisted on a ball-control offense
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Lol this list is absolutely terrible and cherry picked. If single season statistics are what determine who the best QBs are for that particular time frame, you win. We don’t need to bother furthering the discussion.
And btw, you responded to my comment. You disagreed with my point. Is it not your responsibility then to prove your point? I mean according to your rules of message board debates…
Nothing is cherry picked. Those stats actually occurred.
Lets make this easy then. Give me era’s where you think the QB’s were deeper and better than they are now. You might not like what I posted but atleast I tried to have a genuine discussion with actual stats. I did prove my point. You just didn’t like it.
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I’m not gonna use statistics to back up my claim because that’s just stupid…I’m sorry.
Geno Smith will rank as a top 10 QB in 2022 because STATS. That’s just ridiculous…
I lose, you win. I promise I don’t care. Seriously you win this one, I give up 
My days of endless back and forth here are over.
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Didn’t he make the probowl again?
How many 3 time pro-bowlers is not considered one of the best?
I guess it is subjective but your argument seems a little flawed to me.
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